I’ll be on the John Carlson Show 570-KVI, this afternoon at 4:03 PM. John and I will be talking about “the big binder“, and possibly some other election contest errata.
UPDATE:
The Snark has posted that he too is scheduled for Carlson in the 4 PM hour. I was told I’d be on solo, so it looks like just a single segment for me, and then Snark gets to refute. I’d much prefer to go head-to-head.
UPDATE, UPDATE:
I asked the producer to let us go head to head, but apparently Snark refused. Too bad… it would have been much more fun than my wonkish display of truth-telling. Other than the fact that I was probably a little boring, I thought I got my point across. Ah well, now I’ll sit back and listen to Snark’s rebuttal.
UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE:
Twice Stefan called me a “sweet guy;” I’m not really sure what he was implying, but I’d be happy to discuss it with him over drinks. He also thinks I am an excellent writer of “fiction.” I can only assume that he was one of the few dozen non-family members to see my Off-Broadway musical flop. (Just like Stefan for his review to be at odds with the “liberal” New York Times.)
Then he proceeded to devastatingly refute me by charging that yes, the binder does exist… and yes, it does contain the data I said it contains… and yes, my description of the polling place reconciliation process was accurate… and… um… what was the refutation again? Oh yeah… the reconciliation numbers are “way off”, not that he’s actually seen the numbers, but he’s been told so by “sources” and “leaks” and “people that know”… whereas I have naively and deceptively relied on second-hand testimony from KC Elections Director Dean Logan, and KC Superintendent of Elections Bill Huennekens, and KC Elections Communications Specialist Bobbie Egan.
He then concluded his discussion of the binder with a classically McCarthyite rhetorical flourish: “If it exonerated them, they would have released it.” A conjecture to which I would have liked to reply… exonerated them of what?
Following the Snark’s example of logic and fair play, I suppose it appropriate to ask him… if he had not moved to Seattle to flee some personal scandal back in California, why hasn’t he produced the exculpatory evidence? Or perhaps proving a negative is a burden only government officials deserve?
John and Stefan then went on to discuss “the felon vote”, a topic I will address in more detail in a separate post.
While I expect that one’s take on who got the better of the discussion will be colored by ones own partisan perspective, there is one thing that the honest among you surely must admit. John’s listeners actually learned something new from me today: the actual process of polling place reconciliation, and the fact that it did indeed take place. I managed to contribute factual information to the conversation; whether it was lost amidst the usual noise and rancor of talk radio, is beyond my control.
Goldy,
Over on SP, there seems to be some difficulty in finding anyone who can get a peek at the “big binder.”
Are you sure Egan didn’t say “big blunder” instead? Were you talking on a cell phone with a bad connection?
In case you haven’t checked recently, here’s the entry:
http://www.soundpolitics.com/a.....tml#003835
It seems apparent that King County has gone into some kind of delaying mode rather than allow an inspection of the “big binder” or deny access to it.
You have friends in low places, maybe you can intercede and get King County to allow an ordinary citizen to lay eyes on the “big binder” and reassure us all.
congratulations! watch that john, he’s a smart one, great sense of humor as well. I will be listening for sure. This is going to be better than the Savage nation.
Micajah… are you suggesting that King County didn’t perform polling place reconciliation? Because that’s exactly what Stefan seems to be implying (publicly, at least.)
Here’s the deal… the polling place reconciliation worksheet is on the inside cover of the poll book. In addition to the pollbooks, there is data (AccuVote totals, poll book signature totals, absentee and provisional ballot counts, poll worker notes, canvassing log, etc) for all 2616 precincts. So we’re not talking about emailing Stefan a spreadsheet or a pdf… we’re talking about thousands of pages of documentation that needs to be copied or scanned.
Bobbie Egan offered to set up an appointment when somebody could sit me down with the data and explain it to me, and I said I’d be happy to wait, so that they could coordinate it with the reporter who has also requested access. Now it would seem like an awfully ballsy bluff to make that offer when the data doesn’t exist.
Goldy–
You rat bastard!!!!
You forgot to warn Carlson that the BIG BINDER is 3 Story’s tall with firey eyes, a Pinocchio nose and Dumbo ears and staggers thru the streets of downtown Seattle looking for Republicans to canibalize!!!
GOLDY-lox and the BIG BINDER—another fairy-tale methinks.
I’ll be listening Goldy. You have a huge amount of confidence in that BIG BINDER dude. Hopefully YOU know what is in there firsthand. Perhaps torridjoe can work his way up from the City of Portland to help you.
Cynical @ 4
It’s spelled “fiery” idiot. How many times do I have to tell you?
Goldy,
I’m suggesting in plain English that King County doesn’t seem willing to make the “big binder” available for anyone to even see that it exists. No copies need to be made before simply laying it on the counter and saying, “See, it really does exist!”
Rather than try to set up a “straw man,” try responding to what I actually say.
cynical @ 4
alert spelling police
Goldy–
Despite the imposing sound of a BIG BINDER…the BIG BINDER itself don’t impress me much.
I would want to see someone INDEPENDENTLY verify each line item for each precindt in that ominous BIG BINDER with the SOURCE DOCUMENT!! I would want to carefully examine each & every SOURCE DOCUMENT to make sure where it came from, who compiled it and whether or not it was altered (by whom, when and by who’s instruction).
When you audit financial statements, you look at lots of SOURCE DOCUMENTS as part of the audit process for good reason Goldy.
A lot of work must be done before ANYONE should accept anything in that BIG BINDER. Once that step is done….THE FINAL STEP…..is a cummulative compilation of all the precindt worksheets. That will be the starting point for further analysis and conclusions.
Perhaps rather than just run you mouth Goldy…perhaps you can help undertake this RECONCILATION and VERIFICATION process????
I know it’s more fun to run your mouth than actually create hard evidence but…………….Let’s see if you are really, truly interested in the truth. I DIDN’T THINK SO!!!
paper trail after paper trail. even though I use detailed accounting software, I have a spread sheet to back up everything. hard copies, and copies of the data source. that is how accurate accounting works. dean logan and bill make enough money to have that entire office under control. anyone can clearly see that it is sloppy. As the saying goes, when there are so many errors, it’s harder to find fraud.
I’m throwing stones here but I’m pretty sure that KVI put you on at different times because they wanted to save you the public humiliation of getting your ass handed to you in real time.
It’s sad to here a grown man cry on the radio.
Micajah @6,
You say they don’t seem to want to make it available… and yet… they offered to show it to me. Huh?
micajah @ 6
you are suggesting an entirely childish process: going to the clerk and demanding to see proof of the existence of records. What if I went to the library to look for a journal article, and they told me they had that issue but it was being bound, and I stood there and made a fuss so that they could PROVE to me that they had the journal, and show me the issue with the glue dripping off it?
Goldy,
As I had said, you have friends in low places, so maybe you can intercede for us mere mortals and get King County to bring out that holy relic of the November election for a public display.
Failing that, perhaps you could take advantage of their offer, and take a digital photo of the big binder and post it on the web.
Granting that you say they offered you a chance to see it, you turned them down.
Since then, they have neither said “yes” nor “no” to people who have asked to see it. They have simply stalled.
You may have missed a window of opportunity that has forever closed, but we won’t know until you use your pull to get a peek at the big binder and show us that it’s still there.
Go for it, Goldy! Don’t bashfully stand in line while some old media reporter lines up an appointment to view this holy relic. Get in there and take a peek.
Soundcrossing @10,
I’ve done John’s show a number of times, and I don’t think he’d mind humiliating me publicly at all. FYI, I just asked the producer to let me go head to head with Stefan. We’ll see.
;)
Despite our differences Goldy, your a good guy. I’m happy to have you arguing from a different viewpoint.
Carlson’s still a bit behind on the whole “voter credits aren’t reconciliations” concept, I see…
Great job on the Carlson show Goldy. Carlson seemed unable to counter you at the end and seemed to end the interview quickly perhaps for that reason, although I’m sure he wanted to get Shark in and callers.
Again, very well done.
Ah, Shark just can’t help himself – he has to make his arguments by denigrating Goldy.
Hey… Snark just said I’m a “sweet guy.” Think he’s sweet on me?
I disagree, you did not get your point across. You excluded absentees and provisionals. Glad Stefan will now get to blow you out of the water.
That was me who called in right after you and wanted to go head to head with you as well! I do agree that it would have been great to get you and Stefan together, because then Stefan would have been able to shut you down debate style.
I do admire that you came on KVI, and in general, I think you are doing a decent job of reporting and a very good job of writing.
But, your continued defense of King County as having produced anything less than a flawed and completely indeterminate result is disingenuous. Being partisan is fine, I’m all for you having an opposing political view and for wanting Greogire in office. Calling this election and acceptable result though is just contemptable. And I would not stand for it had it been Rossi that came out ahead under the converse circumstances. Not that we could imagine a large urban voting population that was Republican, but if there were such a thing, and a Republican partisan elections board was playing the same kind of games and being less than straight forward, I’d be equally upset.
You are definitely diligent. Cheers.
Jeff B.
I just wanted to note that I cited Dean Logan and Bill Huennekens and Bobbie Egan, whereas Snark cites “people that know” and “insiders” and “leaks.” I explained the actual reconciliation process, and he talks conjecture: “if it exonerated them, they would have released it.”
But apparently, according to Snark, I’m writing fiction.
I do agree that it would have been great to get you and Stefan together, because then Stefan would have been able to shut you down debate style.
Obviously not since he avoided the opportunity.
Shark is just so jocular, chuckle chuckle.
Snark says Goldy is a sweet guy but un-qualified to be a news blogger. More terrific ad-hominem from the Snark.
First, the Snark says the binder and the stuff in it exists.
The Snark has the inside scoop – says people on the canvassing board told him the records in the big binder don’t reconcile. If they told him it must be true. If Snark says it, it must be true. Didn’t Goldy say if a voter gets a ballot from the wrong precinct the records can’t possibly reconcile?
Snark claims the binder has not been shown to anyone who has asked for it including reporters, KC council members, SOS office, etc.
Why would they do that? Maybe because there’s a lawsuit going on?
Now they move on to felons. Carlson makes a big deal about the number of felons voting in KC. Well, duh-uh, most populous county, most sh*t happens.
Boooriiinng…
Carlson is making my point again right now. All Democrats are disingenuous towards the illegal and illegitimate votes. Where’s the outrage from you guys? I suspect there would only be Democrat outrage had the situation been reveresed.
No one trusts you guys because you don’t care about the flaws.
Jeff B @20,
Unlike people like Eyman, I make it a point to answer the questions put forth to me, and John wanted to know about the binder. So what… you’re criticizing me for giving a detailed accurate description of the reconciliation process?
I would have loved to have taken your call, and I was drooling at the prospect of going head to head with Stefan. He had the chance and turned it down.
Good job, Goldy. You managed to repeat the same old song about the 1800+ number without mentioning that the big binder doesn’t offer any other number. But, then, you were being interviewed by the most ignorant radio talk show host in the universe. Maybe you could go on some other show and see if the host would have enough sense to ask you what the real number is. That might make for a good discussion: “Oh, the 1800+ isn’t real, but you have no idea what the real number is? Then how do you know the 1800+ number isn’t a good approximation?”
Well, other than call Carlson a master of irony and rhetoric, Shark had little to add of substance. And of course neither could see the irony of Carlson asking listeners to name one Democrat who has come out against felons voting when Carlson himself then immediately says he knows Democrats who have said as much to him directly.
Goldy@19–
Shark is not “sweet on you”. He is heterosexual.
I think you ought to enforce a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy on your blog Goldy…and start by setting a good example!
No one trusts you guys because you don’t care about the flaws.
Unless the flaws favor the Republicans.
Too be fair, Stefan did not really get in to the reasons why Goldy’s analysis of the discrepancy is wrong, so with respect to the last hour KVI listeners, Stefan did not completely blow Goldy’s points out of the water.
But I know everyone here has been over to SP to read what Stefan has said, and there’s no way that you can ignore the possibility of discrepancy that has been created by the live nature of the database in terms of using that database to simultaneously reconcile provisionals which was occuring after the election and during the counts, and in general to ignore the possibility of discrepancy in the reconciliation process that is created by both absentee and provisional ballots.
Goldy’s point is that there never should be a match in the reconciliation, but the very small margin of victory coupled with the possible sources for error and KC’s inadequate procedures for isolating and containing these errors is exactly what nullifies the result.
Add in the obvious illegitimate votes from felons, dead voters, self oriented mental patients, etc. and the margin of victory is nowhere close to determinate.
Now I know Goldy will start citing WAC code that basically says that we can’t just throw out a result because it was close, but there’s never been an election this close, with this much error and this many illegitimate votes. You are all deluding yourselves if you think this won’t be taken into account by Judge Bridges.
torridjoe @ 12
I am glad there are half full people out there, but sometimes you need to pull your head out to realize the sun is shining, and blind faith won’t get you anywhere. All Sharkansky is saying is that it shouldn’t be viewed as the Holy Grail until we all can read it, we can’t try to back our views with a document(s) that we haven’t seen.
My mom told me when critiquing someone always start with a compliment so:
COMPLIMENT–
Goldy, your voice wasn’t nearly as wretchedly annoying as it usually is. How’s that?
Actually you did a decent job of explaining the differnce between reconciling ballots counted with voters credited AND pollbook reconciliations.
However, Carlson should have asked you the $64,000 question which is: “with the poll book reconciliations in hand, shouldn’t you be able to explain most of the 1800 voter credit/vote counted discrepancy??” He almost had you when he laid out the fact that Logan did go back and seriously tried to explain away the 3600 vote discrepancy but after weeks of trying, Logan said he could only reduce it to 1200—which actually Logan admitted was 1800 (after your pal Sharkansky proved it to Logan).
But Goldy, when it came to the BIG BINDER you looked absolutely FOOLISH when he asked you if you had seen it yet.
The BIG BINDER should lead you to answers in reconciling Ballots and Voters Credited.
Ask me if I’ve seen other County BIG BINDERS?? YES!!!!
Readily available.
micajah–
BIG BINDER=====Holy Relic
GOOD ONE!
but there’s never been an election this close, with this much error and this many illegitimate votes.
The first part is probably right. The last two parts are absurd.
Care to support these absurd assertions?
tj –
What if I went to the library to look for a journal article, and they told me they had that issue but it was being bound, and I stood there and made a fuss so that they could PROVE to me that they had the journal, and show me the issue with the glue dripping off it?
Better:
What if I went to the [elections office] to look for a [big binder], and they told me they had that [2004] issue but it was being [sanitized], and I stood there and made a fuss so that they could PROVE to me that they had the [big binder], and show me the [2004] issue with the [white-out] dripping off it?
Goldy–
It’s interesting you like to slam “right-wing hate talk”….like you are programmed to bash the “boogie-man” yet when you are on John Carlson and Kirby Wilbur’s Shows, they have treated you 100% respectfully, allowed you to speak, not interrupted you, agree with you when warranted, not unnecessarily ridicule you etc. etc. etc.
I’ll bet if you called Michael Medved and others, they would treat you the same way.
My the BIG BINDER be with you my friend. NANU–NANU
Micajah @27,
If you’d like to work as my booking agent, by all means, do the legwork and get me on some other shows so they can ask me the tough questions.
Cynical @36,
And I have always been polite and respectful to them… I have indeed been (as Shark might say)… sweet.
Oh my god…the childish drivel output by the wingers is at a fever pitch today.
Michajah, Marks, Cynical, et. al…what’s keeping you from calling up Egan and asking to see the binder? What’s keeping any of you from doing it? It’s not rocket science, kids.
I didn’t get to listen to Goldy…but jeez..he’s certainly got this crew in a froth. And why is Sharkansky so afraid to go one on one with Goldy on the Carlson show?
carla –
Sacred Cow slain Comment 54.
Enjoy…or not, but take the time to read it (including the links)…
Charlah,
Is that the best you can offer in rejoinder?
The answer shouldn’t be hard for you to imagine: I have no desire to travel for several hours to go to and from the King County elections office.
But dear Goldie, if ‘anyone can see’ the binder, how come no one’s been allowed to see it? (Sec of state’s office, KC Councilpersons who’ve waited over a month to see it, anyone else?)
Marks @ 39:
Slaughter this
Micajah:
Your desire is to sit back and bitch rather than do the fact finding for yourself. Do what you must. But when you’re called on the fact that you’re too lazy to do the work for yourself…
Carla @ 38,
It’s the fact that Goldy exists, gets attention, does some homework and writes humorous, engaging posts that gets these guys into a froth – a big contrast to the humorless, insult-hurler Sharkansky.
I hope your blog never takes off like this one has, Carla. Look no further than here at what you would have to deal with.
carla –
I did.
Sacred Cow redux
And thanks for pointing to the SC…
I have added a third and final update to this post, commenting on Stefan’s exchange with John Carlson.
No. You really didn’t.
Adriel @ 32
I’m not sure I understand the point of your comment. Just because Sharkansky hasn’t seen it, doesn’t mean it’s not the collected set of forms and notes that would collectively lead to an analysis of any discrepancies. What Sharkansky is saying, is that BECAUSE he can’t see it, there must be a lot of discrepancy, and King must be hiding something.
Jeff @ 31
Who is ignoring the possibility of discrepancy among provisionals and absentees? Not David, Carla or I. Goldy’s point was NOT that there should never be a match (as evidenced by repeated reference to “precincts that reconcile”), but that it’s not unusual for there not to be a perfect match, AND that it doesn’t at all necessitate missing voters or illegitimacy or fraud.
carla,
Sacred Cow no longer mooing
Sacred Cow cooked, carla screws pooch
I’m hungry, it’s about time the cow is cooked…
Torrid you are hopeless, I said that nobody has seen it so nobody knows if they are hiding or aren’t. Common sense would tell you they are hiding something because a person without fault has nothing to hide. I know when I got a bad grade in school that my report card didn’t end up in mom’s lap even when she asked for it.
lol, I just heard that the ‘big binder’ has been taken by cynicalidiot and he ate it with his big apetite for ‘honesty’
jpgee-
Obviously you suffer from a case of BIG BINDER envy!
Hell, you probably tell everybody the same thing GOldy does..
I’ve never actually seen a BIG BINDER and I wish please, please, please that I had a BIG BINDER instead of this puny, little BINDER I’ve been cursed with.
jpgee–it’s ok little one…probably a family curse..genetices.
Look in your favorite LEFTY WINGNUT WEEKLY under Support Groups…I’m sure there must be one for your sad afflication.
Mr Cynical @51
LSHIPMP! Don’t worry, I didn’t ruin anything…’cept my pride…
torridjoe–
I asked you a number of times and you still haven’t answered me.
Are you a Government employee?
I respect your research ability…don’t always agree with your conclusions but………are you a Government employee?
Do you work for the City of Portland?
I hope this is not true tj…………..
Mom and Dad, may I please see the big binder? Please?
My baby’s got BIG, BIG Binders!
In the beginning there was Binder…
Got Binder?
In an age of seeming innocence, itt was the Tammany Hall of Big Binders.
Yes, Indiana Jones finally found the BIG Binder, which is now stored in a very large government warehouse.
Dressed in leather Big Binders, she winked provacatively.
Bing Bing Big Binders, the new fashion accessory.
As Ed Sullivan once said, this is going to be a REALLY BIG BINDER….
Reportedly responsible for the east Asian practice of tying feet in really REALLY BIG BINDERS.
Guided by BIG BINDER Ambition, he was both ruthless and comical.
I’d better stop before I’m in a REALLY BIG BIND…ER…
Adriel @ 49
On what basis are you saying they have “something to hide?” Do you not notice how colored your view of the situation is? A person without fault has nothing to hide, you say. So does a person who doesn’t have a countywide reconciliation summary prepared to be reviewed. You say “nobody’s seen it” as if that’s good enough for you to conclude that maybe it doesn’t exist at all.
Or perhaps they’ve been chasing down the voter credit gap after Sharkansky and Carlson made a big stink about it for several weeks. It’s only because the both of them were so uninformed about what the actual counting documents were, that they bloviated so hard on it. Hell, Carlson STILL can’t get off the voter credits. Sharkansky has moved his rhetoric to the “binder” now, but has little to say about the shift away from talking credits once the MSM (and one of his own sources) crushed his arguments like a bug. Why? Because he chased a red herring for a month…and he made King chase it too, despite their protests that it really wasn’t all that relevant.
A countywide reconciliation summary was not performed, because they were not required to. That would appear to be what they’re doing now, once they finally established that the voter credit gap was not really irregular.
If someone can recall any real contribution to the story from SP besides the duplicate ballots in the first voter credit file, what are they? Stuff that’s turned out to be descriptive of events.
Adriel,
you are hopeless, I said that nobody has seen it so nobody knows if they are hiding or aren’t. Common sense would tell you they are hiding something
Sorry, bud. You’re the hopeless one. Wouldn’t common sense also tell you that a major piece of evidence in a major lawsuit might be locked down to preclude further lawsuits and worse?
You have seen no evidence of wrongdoing therefore you conclude there is wrongdoing.
Hopeless indeed.
What bug flew up zapporo’s butt?
John You wouldn’t know a smoking gun if the bullet went in your right ear and then out your left.
Torrid- I don’t remember saying there wasn’t a Holy Grail (big binder) are you so high that you thought I did? Let me rephase my question, if you had the proof to clear your stained reputation wouldn’t you show it off? or would you hide it behind locked doors denying anyone who wanted to know the truth?
Adriel,
Getting a little violent in your metaphors aren’t you Adriel? Are you cornered again?
Pull out the smoking gun Adriel. Let’s see it. If it’s anything like Sharkansky’s smoking guns I bet it vanishes just as you reach for it..
The clock is ticking….
Adriel at 59
I said you spoke as if you believed it might not be there, which I still think is true.
There are problems I have with your question. It presupposes a stained reputation, or more precisely the perception of a stained reputation. It presupposes that there is some “proof” of regularity that can be obtained by examining it, without knowing what question it’s supposed to answer. It presupposes that Dean Logan has the first clue what it is Sharkansky and Carlson want them to jump through hoops on now. And it presupposes that the “truth” (again, on what is not clear from you) is being denied, rather than say, compiled or reviewed.
I figured once I pointed out how skewed a vision you bring to the first consideration of this issue, you wouldn’t amplify what I was talking about in your next post.
John @ 56
I’m not aware of any restrictions on it, or that it’s been subpoenaed by Rossi. As of today in fact, the Communications Director for the SoS wouldn’t even confirm to me that they’ve asked for anything, and repeat that King has complied with all legal requirements for certifying their results. I have an interview scheduled with the office on Tuesday; I’ll see if I can find out what, if anything, they’re looking for. I think the simplest explanation is the one they gave David–it’s not ready for laypeople to just sit down and read.
When I say “they” in the last line I mean King, not the SoS.
TJ @ 61
Thanks for that TJ. Our dear friend Adriel can now plainly see that you walk the walk and are willing to do the necessary footwork – something he and his name-calling friends on this board and at (un)Sound Politics would be loathe to do – they can’t risk bursting their bubbles. Except of course for the illustrious Mr. Sharkansky who will only stumble through the haze of his most fanatically held prejudices.
Thanks for the good work you’re doing on the blog. I look forward to reading about what you find out.
thanks john. I’m enjoying learning about it.
torridjoe @ 61-
“It presupposes a stained reputation, or more precisely the perception of a stained reputation.”
tj, the kettle is black
You are a party hack?
Perhaps I overemphasized it… Simply stated, I have no doubt of your affiliation, but I am just not sure you know it yourself. If I am wrong, or misinformed, let me know so I can correct any discrepancy. I may be jumping the gun…
And tell carla to LOOK at the Global Warming data I provided. She must let you do it usually, because she refuted my facts with a Microbiologist, a stand up comic, and geneticist…I fail to see any connection…
You couldn’t script better entertainment — this is (locally) right up there with a white house sex scandal or Iran-Contra! Keep up the great work!
Here is a great essay dedicated to KVI, KTTH, EFF, (un)Sound Politics, HA’s own invasion force of flying-monkey wingers and last but certainly not least to Stefan Sharkansky.
marks @ 65
I responded back there, but you utterly misread the article. “Our case” to dismiss is quite obviously the Rossi case. The Democrats have no case to dismiss. I am politically unaffiliated, always have been.
Global warming is a near-unanimous reality; almost as consensually agreed is an impact of man-made processes. No one doubts that there are Chicken Littles and Pollyannas among the scientific community, but the mainstream research experts are convinced. But I don’t run Carla’s life.
CynicalIdiot @ 51 is that the support group YOU go to? I have heard about a nutty looking guy standing in the back with his trench coat and red wig. How is the therapy there? Has it helped you yet?
Adriel @ 58
well, then he would be like you …an air head
“Global warming is a near-unanimous reality”… 68, TJ, Global warming is a near-unanimous reality among yhose who “gets the guvment grants” to study Global warming. To the rest of us, GW is merely junk science with lots of Democrat public relations.
ABBA DABBA DO. Take the FIFTH. No need for felons to cave in. The Republican’s have sought to incriminate anyone they can. Maybe Rossi can come up with enough felon witnesses that are former celebrities to trump the Michael Jackson case.
There is no conspiracy. There is no fraud. There are irregularities. There are illegal votes. Public information is available to the Public. There are rules to obtain such as is setforth in law. There is a proper way to obtain public records. The matter of conforming comes into play; the way in which you MUST ask in written form for exactly what you wish to obtain. Try it. Before you decide to hop on the conspiracy bandwagon, make the effort to first seek.
I think somewhere in the locked doors of the King County Elections office is the answer to a an ever brighter burning question.
[cue x-files theme]
Shorter Adriel – I want to believe, faith-based smoking gun.
Gentlemen, excuse me, excuse me, It’s one thing to have a few “errors” here and there, but KC made massive errors that ALL coincidentally happened durring the hand count.
it did look suspicious at the time. Their actions now, not revealing the big binder, only reinforces that suspicion.
It has been almost 4 months. maybe king county elections dept needs some “good home training”.
Thank you chardonnay, These guys lack the common sense God gave a rock. The words Conspiracy & Fraud never came from this keyboard, and yet they keep spinning without facts further re-enforcing my theory on them.
The comment on “not realeasing” public information except to the good old boys leads one to assume there is a secret plot. Secret government or secret plot, both indicate some form of conspiracy exists. I doubt whether depriving the public of rightfull information would be to anyone’s gain for eventually all comes out in the wash at court. By no means take this to mean that our internal form of government is totally squeaky clean and free of dragons.
chard @ 76
Once again, can you actually LIST any errors of the hand count, much less massive ones? The only one I can think of is failing to double check signatures against those not yet entered–and that one was fixed, over the objections of the Rossi team (who curiously have the balls now to “count all the votes.”
Adriel @ 73
How would the binder prove there was no wrongdoing? What’s the wrongdoing that you expect the binder to reveal?
torridjoe @ 80
It would allow people to more thouroughly understand what went right, and what went wrong and if there was even larger numbers of illegal voting.
Chee @ 78
“I doubt whether depriving the public of rightfull information would be to anyone’s gain for eventually all comes out in the wash at court. By no means take this to mean that our internal form of government is totally squeaky clean and free of dragons.”
Then we both agree, I don’t think it is in anyones best interest to slow the process of allowing facts from this binder to come forth. It also seems that we agree that the goverment is not “squeaky clean and free of dragons,” so why were we fighting again? I never implied conspiracy, I just implied that there is a close knit group that covers each others backsides; not intended as a read between the lines thing.
Adriel @ 81
Yes on one, no on two. Sure, any review of primary documents is bound to enhance understanding. MY understanding is that, as currently held, it would be an incomprehensible mess to evaluate. It is being prepared for public review. In that sense I think Goldy might have overstepped to say “it’s there for anyone to look at.” It’s there, people will be able to look at it, but the two aren’t true together yet. As for illegal votes, I think that’s likely not true. All it will show is discrepancy and the attempts at explaining them. As Goldy pointed out on Carlson, ballots given in the wrong precinct will cause 2 separate imbalances, fairly easily reconcilable by other means–but it won’t change the raw numbers: Precinct A with an extra ballot, Precinct B with an extra voter.
I hear there are long lines at the paper shredders in the Logan compound.
Maybe that is why no one has time to locate the Big Binder.
He called you a sweet guy? HMMM… A lot of the neocons have been coming out of the closet lately… Take a chaperone when you go for those drinks… :-)
jingo @ 83
How original was that? You get that from Sharkansky? When in doubt, make sh*t up. SOP for your side.
Loosely assuming that the elusive “big binder” even exists, by the time the “dims” get done “massaging” the data contained therein, it will no doubt come out reconciled and smelling like a rose.
Would you expect anything less from a group who will cheat, allow the dead and felons to vote, find “magical mystery ballots” NINE different times, feed provisional ballots directly into voting machines without verifying them, have thousands more votes than voters, disenfranchise our brave soldiers, and then have the unadulterated gall to call this a “model election”?
All in order to have their candidate win and thus retain the power over the state that they have gotten accustomed to having for the last 24 years. (Not to mention retain the $$$ for themselves and the special interest groups that support them!)
Whew! Clint, get ahold of yourself and take some deep breaths!
You remind me of me a month ago.
To a point I find ironic, the “model election” claim from Ms. Gregoire, that is why we are having a contest in court. At this point, neither party has an advantage, despite torridjoe’s analysis (as brilliant as it was, it was only an analysis).
Further, rehashing the 9×9 is done here on a daily basis, but will only matter if the judge decides it does. The matter is ensconced in the general area within which it will be decided.
I think public opinion has been with Dino, not merely from the 2 out of 3 counts, but by entering into the equation hot-button vote irregularities. Will the R lawyers be able to convince a judge? I hope so, but I am not holding my breath when it comes to the WASC doing the right thing. At this point, wait and see is where we are at…
Jeff @ 25
How much outrage about “illegal votes” did we hear from Vance & Co. when Rossi was ahead? None, as I recall. The reason Democrats aren’t jumping up and down about it is because the whole thing smacks of hypocritical opportunism.
JCH @ 71
Where do you get your “science”? From Lomborg?
jingo @ 83
You’ve posted a specific accusation against Dean Logan, i.e. that he’s destroying material documents. Now prove it. If you can’t, you’re nothing but a bullshitter blowing gas out of his ass.
Clint….Who ALLOWED felons to vote? No such a thing as a “group” allowed. Whether a leftwinger or a rightwinger, you too become part of the allowed crowd. ALL citizen’s have a right by law to challenge a voter right at the polls or also before voting day. That means before it all hits the fan any of us can go over the rolls and file a written challenge. Candidate Rossi was not interested in a pre-challenge or poll day challenge until he found he had lost. If there was such a huge concern about keeping things legal why no conern for pre-empting. Rossi, amongst others, had no desire to close the barn door before the horse got out. Now everyone wnats the barn door closed.
Nor did we hear a peep from the Rossi camp about felons or dead voters while he was ahead. No one should doubt for an instant that Rossi would want illegal votes counted if they put him over the top.
Chee
By not verifying whether or not convicted felons had their voting rights restored and/or not clearing the voter roles, King County essentially “allowed” through their non-action at least 1,108 felons to vote illegally… not to mention many dead people, people who voted more than once, and they are still unable to reconcile more than 2000 more votes than voters. Jeez, even Dean Logan and company are willing to admit at least 1800 of those. Although I’m sure that the mythical “big binder” will explain all of this away once THEY (the democrats and KC elections board) have had time to invent enough data to make up the discrepancy.
Don,
When Governer Rossi was ahead, King County had not “discovered” the hundreds of extra ballots yet. At that point it seemed to everyone, or at least everyone who wasn’t p*ssed that Rossi was winning, that the election was above board and relatively honest, as much as can be said for most elections here and elsewhere.
And as long as we’re bringing up the counting of votes, why don’t you address the fact that hundreds of Military votes, of soldiers who put their life on the line every day so that YOU and your loved ones can live more safe and free and not have to fight the terrorists in your own streets, were thrown out by the KC elections board, because the “dims” were concerned that the soldiers tend to vote Republican. (How soon some people forget 9/11… it was ten times worse than Pearl Harbor, people… there are still WWII veterans and even civilians who lived through that time, and STILL haven’t forgotten. Plus, 9/11 happened right here in our mainland… not on some small island out iin the Pacific.)
And let’s not even get in to the more votes than voters thing… those votes alone are nearly 20 times gregoire’s alleged “lead”… the proven illegal felon votes are nearly ten times her “lead” of 129 votes, which she declares to be a victory… yet when Governor Rossi was ahead by 261 votes, long before the illegitimate votes were discovered, she called the race a “tie”.
Wow, people… take off your blinders and think for yourselves instead of regurgitating the democrat mantras over and over. You’re free! You don’t have to live like cattle and follow the herd.
May God Bless you!
All partisan rhetoric aside, this isn’t about Democrat vs. Republican… it isn’t about whether your favorite candidate wins… it’s about the integrity of the process. It’s already so corrupted in so many places around the country that it’s a tragedy.
Is this really the kind of world you want to live in? That you want your children growing up in?
Is this the legacy you want them to inherit? Is this the lesson you want them to learn? That the winners of the world are the ones who can cheat the best and then cover their tracks so they aren’t exposed for that cheating?
If so, I’m glad that most of my life is behind me. This isn’t a world that I would want to live in. And (ironically) thank God, my wife and I don’t have children that will have to live through it, due to her suffering a brain injury nearly 20 years ago. (and our cats couldn’t care less about politics (grin))
Read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, people… that’s the way it’s supposed to be… a Government of the PEOPLE. They are OUR representatives.
Due to the “dumbing-down” of America, most people don’t even see that our rights and our voices are being eroded away at an alarming rate. And yet, they have you convinced that you’re “free”. It’s a sad state of affairs.
I pray that there is still time to change things.
May God Bless us all… we REALLY need it.
Clint, you seem to have come in late, and thus are way behind on the facts. You’re using Rossi talking points from, like, December. Let’s see if I can help set the record straight:
*King County is not charged with checking on felons to see if they’ve had their rights restored. A felon has his registration canceled when the courts send notice of it to the county. They get ONLY those where the felon listed King as the address. The data format does not match perfectly; for one thing it doesn’t have birth dates. If a felon has their rights restored, they must re-register. All they do is fill out the card and swear they’re able. The county is REQUIRED to accept it when completed.
*1,108 is the WSRP’s number for the total statewide, not King. Their own accounting refers to 884, I believe. And that is entirely unverified. The Seattle Times was only able to find 129 between King AND Pierce.
*Many dead people? I think they had “10,” five of which were actually people signing in on dead people’s lines. King is similarly not responsible for purging dead people; they rely on Public Records to send them notices.
*I don’t believe you have any idea what the result of King’s reconciliation process was, because they’ve not released it. You may be thinking of the voter credit process, which to date has yielded a gap of 1,860. That is a separate, unrelated set of numbers that does not attempt to reconcile ballots and voters.
I’ll leave alone your fantastic rantings about what scams Logan and King are SURE to perform on a binder you think may not even exist.
*There is no evidence I’m aware of, nor is it an allegation of Rossi’s, that military voters were disenfranchised in any way. The record shows all ballots went out on time.
*An election that is close before a manual recount IS, by Washington law, effectively a tie. One that is close after the manual recount, is in fact a victory.
As for the election being corrupted, see today’s headlines:
http://alsoalso.typepad.com/al.....g_cou.html
torridjoe
I came into this on November 2, 1994, just like the rest of us.
*Regardless of who is charged with checking on felons, ANY felon who votes and has not had their voting rights restored has committed a crime. The vote is an illegal vote, and cancels out an honest voter’s vote, thereby disenfranchising that honest voter.
*You are correct on the KC felon count. I misread and the number is 884 for KC, 1,108 statewide. However, I repeat, ANY felon who votes and has not had their voting rights restored has committed a crime. The vote is an illegal vote, and cancels out an honest voter’s vote, thereby disenfranchising that honest voter. Whether or not these numbers are verified will come out in court, and won’t be decided by you or the Seattle Times.
*Regardless of who is responsible for purging the roles, ANYBODY who has filled in a dead person’s ballot and submitted it as valid has cast an illegal vote, which cancels out an honest voter’s vote, thereby disenfranchising that honest voter.
*By the Secretary of State’s Election Rules, counties are required to reconcile their voting numbers before certifying a result, and yet, we have gregoire certified as our governor. Other counties reconciled their information before certification, but KC can’t seem to get their numbers reconciled. However, they HAVE certified the result. Something is horribly wrong there, and Election Officials have said they don’t know what went wrong with the KC process.
And if the mysterious binder debunks all of the claims against KC, and it is proven to be valid, then so be it. But that will be seen in court, and won’t be decided by you or any other gregoire fans.
*The “record” on when the Military ballots went out has changed at least twice that I know of. (can you say “massaging the data”?) And regardless of when it is “claimed”, the fact remains that many of our brave men and women in uniform did not get a fair chance to vote because their ballots arrived too late for them to get them back on time. That’s just plain wrong. If you enjoyed your freedom today, and appreciate your right to vote at all, it is because soldiers like them have spilled their blood in various conflicts both here and on foreign soil to preserve that freedom and that right. Whether or not the WA soldiers were disenfranchised will be decided in court and not by you.
*An election this close after a manual recount that includes illegal votes that far exceed the margin of victory is hardly a victory, and will no doubt be nullified once the proof is shown in court… no matter how much you REALLY, REALLY want it to be a victory for your candidate.
And if you are satisfied and happy with the status quo, then I do beleive I need to say a few extra prayers for you.
God Bless you and your loved ones!
“Clint” @ 93
” … hundreds of Military votes … were thrown out by the KC elections board”
Bullshit. http://www.metrokc.gov/electio....._01_05.htm
“Clint” @ 93
“How soon some people forget 9/11… it was ten times worse than Pearl Harbor, people”
Official 9-11 death toll: 2,819
Official Pearl Harbor death toll: 2,388
“Clint” @ 93
“An election this close after a manual recount that includes illegal votes that far exceed the margin of victory is hardly a victory, and will no doubt be nullified once the proof is shown in court… no matter how much you REALLY, REALLY want it to be a victory for your candidate.”
This one is easy. All we have to do is wait and see.
clint @ 96
How does it cancel out an honest voter’s vote? Their vote is still counted. You don’t know whose vote it’s “canceling out,” anyway. And OK, it’s an illegal vote. So what? What’s your point?
How the heck do you know KC didn’t reconcile their numbers? You have plucked this charge from thin air. What evidence are you providing? Have you examined the ballot sheets for the precincts? How did you manage that? What “election officials” have said they don’t know what went wrong with the King reconciliation process? Who? What names?
You presume an AWFUL lot referring to me as a Gregoire fan. I had no clue who the hell she was before Nov 2. The first thing I read about her, was the shameless way she blackmailed Democrats to get a statewide recount. She doesn’t represent me, and I don’t belong to her party. So check yourself before you start assuming you know what their political preference is.
The “record” has only changed because SoundPolitics made wild allegations that were later debunked, and apologized for at SP. The mailing logs are pretty clear. I should know, I have a copy. There is not a single official in the state or at the federal level, who has made any claim about King ballots going out late. Which is smart, because as I said I have the evidence that they didn’t.
What evidence do you have that “many” got their ballots too late to send back? And if so, why did they not avail themselves of the myriad other options to vote, options which their companies explained to them?
Why is it hardly a victory? It was an honestly run election, as Rossi himself admits.
“Clint” @ 96
Not only is your claim that King County mailed military ballots late false, but overseas military personnel don’t need to receive an absentee ballot to vote. They can ask their unit’s Voting Assistance Officer for a Federal Write-In Ballot. They don’t have to know the candidate’s name; they can vote by indicating party preference. No stamps or voter registration needed. Their vote will be assigned to the precinct of their home-of-record designated in their military service file.
Don,
Regarding Military votes, I have one name for you… Tyler Farmer. And he reports others of his unit who got their ballots too late to vote. The last I read the number of Military disenfranchised by KC was over 260 and growing… all because they received their ballots too late to vote.
Let’s see, unsecured votes found in the bottom of voting machines with no chain of custody, improperly stored votes found in a cage with no chain of custody, some found in a box next to someone’s desk (!), again with no chain of custody, voters registered at mail drop boxes, and storage lockers, a councilman registered at the elections office in Precinct 1823, An additional 48 voters in Precinct 1823 giving their addresses as a mail drop box, several Precinct 1823 “homeless” voters who also give their mailing addresses elsewhere, Snohomish County finding 224 unsecured ballots buried under empty mail trays with no chain of custody, of course. “Mystery ballots were “found” NINE times, people… finally giving gregoire the lead. And there’s always the 1,860 voterless ballots that even Dean Logan… your own guy, admits to, these all count, but the Military ballots don’t?
That’s the REAL bullshit!
Plus, it is a fact that on the SoS website, that the date the Military ballots were sent out has changed at least two times (that I know of.) If all that doesn’t create “reasonable doubt” in the process, I don’t know what does. Jeez, murderers are aquitted on less!
You are correct about the Pearl Harbor casualties. I had read different somewhere, I don’t remember where, but I was wrong. But many have forgotten about 9/11 as time passes, and have lost the sense of appreciation for our troops who put themselves in harm’s way. Our troops deserve to have their votes counted.
torridjoe,
Every illegal vote, no matter who it’s for, cancels out an honest voter’s legal vote. Simple logic.
If KC reconciled their results, we wouldn’t have a discrepancy there of at least 1,860 votes. Simple logic.
And I believe that Governor Rossi, in order to not shake the public’s trust and faith in our election system any further than it already has been, prefers to keep a low profile on this publicly and will let the attorneys fight it out in court. (not to mention it keeps him from coming off like the whiny “crybaby” image that gore came off as in Florida 2000… that pretty much ruined his career in politics.)
And finally, Don,
Yes it will finally be decided in court. And if you think that the Federal powers-that-be are not keeping a close eye on this to make sure that the WSSC doesn’t pull any partisan BS like the Florida SC did in 2000, you are deluding yourself. This country can’t afford to have the the publics faith in this process damaged much more. And there are a lot of people, people who vote, who are getting mighty tired of the games that are being played by legislators and justices alike. You want WA to become a Red State? Just keep playing games with the will of the people.
Personally, I can’t wait.
Finally, I have better things to do with my life than to go back and forth with you guys about this crap. I’ve made my position clear in my posts and rebuttals. If you want to argue, go back and read my posts again, and argue with them to your heart’s content.
God Bless!
Clint @102,
How about the following the article from Stars and Stripes: “Washington State, Military Officials Say No Evidence of Ballot Problems Found.”
Goldy,
Thank you for the link. Maybe the Military ballot issue was blown up in the media. If I’m wrong, which it seems that I am, I apologize.
By chance, did the article happen to explain the 1,860 (or more) voterless ballots that Dean Logan spoke about?
I also couldn’t find anything about the 350 or so provisional ballots that were fed directly into the counting machines without verification, that the Seattle Times reported on.
But surely when reading the article, I must have missed the part where they report on the 1,108 felons who had not had their voting rights restored, who cast illegal ballots. Or those considerate individuals who voted on behalf of the dead.
Jeez, I wish we hadn’t lost those 260 Military ballots… no doubt they would have made all the difference in whether or not CG was the legitimate Governor, considering her 129 vote lead.
God Bless!
Clint @ 93:
Operating on and debating over a whole lot of heresay can get real unfactual; that being the case if you do not have the records in front of you. It is like the game where you tell one person something and they pass it on and it comes out wrong. Those directly working with and in the system know that for every step taken to perfect it, another person learns a step to abuse it. That is why laws keep being made. We have more cooked on the books than can be enforced already. Sorry to say, people are basically bent to be crooked or dishonest. They find ways to cheat where they can. The IRS can verify that. And people want their government to be holier than thou. Would be nice. Dream on!
Clint @ 96:
Hope you know Big Brother Rossi is watching you. It has been verified that the request to obtain the State Patrol Data Bank cost around $2000. Those records are a tell all. Data bank contains everyone’s names and data that has a reason to appear there, includes those minor misders, bitty infracs. Did you fail to stop? Have you jaywalked of late? Oh yes, I almost forgot… it also contains names of felons.
I would just like to quote from a prepared statement:
“You sum-no-de-beaches think you got my boils in a sling? I just thank God that I live in a country where the rights of an upstanding, law abiding citizen… such as myself, are protected from a bunch of fargin’ ice-holes like you.”
“corksuckers!”
(Thank you Johnny Dangerously!)
God Bless!
Also,
Chee, so let me see if I’ve got this straight… it would have cost KC only $2000 to check the names of illegal felon voters against the State Patrol Data Bank? It would have been that simple?
Wow! Thank you for making my case.
God Bless!
Also, Chee… let me see if I’ve got this straight… whether I REALLY understand what you’re saying. It would have cost KC only $2000 to check the names of suspected illegal felon voters against the State Patrol database? It would have been that easy?
Wow! Thank you for making my case!
God Bless!
“Clint” @ 93
“King County essentially “allowed” through their non-action at least 1,108 felons to vote illegally…”
Oh really? What is your source for this info? WSRP only claims 884. See http://www.wsrp.org/
“not to mention many dead people, people who voted more than once”
Statewide, WSRP claims a grand total of 45 dead votes plus “10 votes cast by people who voted more than once in Washington, and five votes cast by people who voted in Washington and another state.” Same source.
It sure looks like you’re regurgitating what you hear on talk radio without doing any fact checking or research. Do you seriously believe you get away with that on this web site? If you want to spout the party line, at least check the party web site!!! I mean, how hard is THAT???
I won’t bother to mention that these figures are unproven allegations, or that most of the illegal voters who talked to the press said they voted for Rossi, as I’m sure that’s way over your head.
“Clint” @ 94
Leave God out of this. She is not on your side.
Memo to “Clint” re felon votes:
You’re wrong again, it’s a crime only if done knowingly and with intent. In all likelihood, most of the “illegal felon voting” is due to Washington’s very confusing system of restoring felon voting rights. Here is one place where you can point to institutional failure as a cause of voting irregularities and legislative reform can make a real difference. Currently, nobody seems to be in charge of restoring felon voting rights, and nobody seems to know which ex-felons are entitled to vote and which aren’t, least of all the felons themselves. To my knowledge, to date no prosecutor in the state has charged a single felon with voting illegally; they’re extremely gun-shy of these cases because of the difficulty of proving intent.
And finally …
I put “Clint” in quote marks (“”) because I’m a big fan of the REAL Clint … Clint Eastwood, that is. And you, “Clint,” whoever you are, are no Clint Eastwood. You’re a half-cocked wingnut lacking an original thought.
Please let me re-state:
All partisan rhetoric aside, this isn’t about Democrat vs. Republican… it isn’t about whether your favorite candidate wins… it’s about the integrity of the process. It’s already so corrupted in so many places around the country that it’s a tragedy.
Is this really the kind of world you want to live in? That you want your children growing up in?
Is this the legacy you want them to inherit? Is this the lesson you want them to learn? That the winners of the world are the ones who can cheat the best and then cover their tracks so they aren’t exposed for that cheating?
If so, I’m glad that most of my life is behind me. This isn’t a world that I would want to live in. And (ironically) thank God, my wife and I don’t have children that will have to live through it, due to her suffering a brain injury nearly 20 years ago. (and our cats couldn’t care less about politics (grin))
Read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, people… that’s the way it’s supposed to be… a Government of the PEOPLE. They are OUR representatives.
Due to the “dumbing-down†of America, most people don’t even see that our rights and our voices are being eroded away at an alarming rate. And yet, they have you convinced that you’re “free”. It’s a sad state of affairs.
I pray that there is still time to change things.
May God Bless us all… we REALLY need it.
“Clint” @ 114
It’s pretty hard to get cooperation from the other side for cleaning things up when they attempt to institutionalize vote suppression in the guise of “election reform.”
It’s been said here that my claims are “unsubstantiated”… perhaps you should take that up with these folks.
Again… Is this really the kind of world you want to live in or the legacy you want your children to inherit?
http://www1.leg.wa.gov/documen.....18-028.htm
http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/003808.html
http://www.king5.com/localnews.....75.html?hp
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....te25m.html
http://www.metrokc.gov/electio.....01_07b.htm
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....nty18.html
http://www.metrokc.gov/electio.....01_07b.htm
http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/003814.html
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....pfrom=tsto
http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/003386.html
And there are many, many more.
It’s not too late to do something about it, people.
God Bless!