I’ve been both nervous and excited to watch the events in Egypt unfold over the past few weeks. After visiting some friends in Cairo in 2007, the nation remains a special place to me. Seeing some of those friends disappear from Facebook from a few days at the end of January gave me an ominous feeling that things wouldn’t turn out well. It seemed for a while that the long-held belief that Mubarak could never be dislodged was being tested to its limits, only to be reinforced with a bloody crackdown.
This victory doesn’t just change the regime in Egypt, it changes the mindset of the Egyptian people and beyond. After the Tunisian revolution, some people in Egypt started to imagine that it could happen there, but many others still didn’t. In fact, the friend I stayed with in Cairo was traveling through Europe for work when the protests started and wasn’t expecting much of anything to come of them. A week later, he was trying to get back into the country to join the chorus of Egyptians who’d despised Mubarak for years but felt powerless to do anything about it. Today Egyptians feel a greater sense of having the power to bring about change on their own. And other long-repressed peoples are starting to believe that they can too.
Eight years ago, as we were preparing to enter Iraq, many supporters of the invasion believed that toppling Saddam Hussein’s regime would be the domino that inspires others to rise up against their own oppressors, but it never happened. Instead, Iraq descended into bloody civil war and authoritarian countries like Iran were able to tighten their grip. It was never well-understood that in order for totalitarianism to give way to democracy, the people of that country have to fight that battle themselves. We can’t make that transition for them. The Egyptian people didn’t – and still don’t – need our help to build a nation with greater freedom and democratic values. They just risked their lives for it. They know what they want – and if left alone, they’ll build it. And that’s more likely to be the impetus that brings greater freedom and democracy to that entire region.
All revolutions have to be an inside job, even if they need some logistical support (like we did from Spain during our revolution from Britain’s rule).
Stock markets opened low this morning, reacting to the news that Murbarak was still in charge. But as soon as it was clear he was leaving, they swung up swiftly, gaining back all the lost territory and rising even further. At 12:00 noon, the DJIA is up 46 points. There may be some re-trenchment later, but it appears that even the “capitalist class” likes what’s happening in Egypt.
@2
I’m sure the uncertainty was making everyone nervous.
Dori Monson was just predicting doom and gloom. He called those cheering the revolution as “politically correct idiots”. He warned that Jordan, Saudia Arabia, and $15 per gallon gas was just around the corner, unless the U.S. “helped” with the direction of the new government. He also through in a gratuitous commment about the danger of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Of course his statements were very carefully crafted, so he could deny he said what he intended his audicence to hear.
It’s true that Egypt is in play, and lots of interests from within and without Egypt will be trying to “adjust” the outcome. But the one fatal mistake the U.S. can make is being seen as proping up yet another regime with the primary goal being to protect our own interests. If we do that, the new regime will have no more legitimacy than the old one, and the masses who flooded the streets of Cairo in protest against Mubarak will be furious at the U.S. for “hijacking” their revolution. That is the one SURE way for making sure that the Egyptian revolution turns out like the Iranian one.
@4: Which makes Fox News’ bleating about the Muslim Brotherhood that much more dangerous . . . they might actually fool a significant part of the U.S. population into believing the U.S. needs to intervene. Afterall, if they can convince 18% of Americans that Obama is a Muslim, the sky’s the limit.
4
A lesson this nation has never learned is that hijacking another nation’s revolution never pays off in the long run. So far, I give kudos to the Administration for keeping hands off while saying the right things. This is a very exciting, if not also frightening, development, not just for Egypt, but for all fans of democracy. It will be fascinating to see how it all plays out.
@4
Dori Monson was just predicting doom and gloom. He called those cheering the revolution as “politically correct idiots”. He warned that Jordan, Saudia Arabia, and $15 per gallon gas was just around the corner, unless the U.S. “helped” with the direction of the new government. He also through in a gratuitous commment about the danger of the Muslim Brotherhood.
These same morons were the ones who scolded those of us who opposed the Iraq War by claiming that the reason for our opposition was that we didn’t think Arabs were ready for democracy. Now they’ve gone back to believing that Arabs aren’t ready for democracy again.
@1
You mean France. We received help from France in order to gain our liberty from Great Britain.
Not Spain. France, and a few Polaks.
@1
Oops. My bad. I always knew that France helped out a great deal but I forgot about Spain. Spain did help out, with money, logistics and soldiers.
So, the colonies won their independence with help from France, Spain, the Dutch republic, some Native American tribes and some Polaks.
PS If you ever want to read a great fictional account of the Revolution in the Deep South, I recommend Jimmy Carter’s “The Hornets Nest”. It is the only work of fiction by a US president. It is amazing and surprisingly it tells the saga through the POV of 3 different people — a reluctant rebel, a loyalist officer and a Native American. It does not pull any punches and it highlights how brutal the war was in the south, which is often overlooked by historians. It also describes the horrors of war and acts of brutality carried out by all sides, like “tarring and feathering”.
I’m just glad the US isn’t going to be involved militarily. How about the Egyptians deciding Egypt’s future rather than having the US butt-into its affairs? It’s time to shrink the empire – close down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, close the European bases and Asian bases and bring the troops and equipment home.
@8 No I meant Spain. I wasn’t meaning to list EVERY country that helped, just making an example. :)
France AND Spain both helped out BECAUSE they both were constantly fighting with Britain for resources and control in the New World.
WikiPedia: “Spain actively supported the Thirteen Colonies throughout the American Revolutionary War, beginning in 1776 by jointly funding Roderigue Hortalez and Company, a trading company that provided critical military supplies, through financing the final Siege of Yorktown in 1781.”
Anyway, the point was the natives (us) had to be the ones who WANTED the revolution to begin with…even if sometimes you need logistical support from more established outsides powers (Spain, France, Dutch, etc).
U.S. military intervention in other people’s revolutions sets an undesirable precedent because Americans are a repressed people, too, and we don’t want to encourage other countries to intervene militarily here when our unemployed and starving masses finally rise up against Wall Street and K Street.
America isn’t a democracy. It’s a government of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich. When we elect a Republican, we get a Republican. When we elect a Democrat, we get another Republican. No matter who we vote for, we get a Republican. You can’t call that democracy.
Actually, I’d say our government is a government of the government, by the government and for the government.
@12 LOL
Yeah, we’re repressed..LOL, no we’re greedy. We WANT Wall Street (money for nothing) and all the toys and gadgets we have. They had a 30 year dictator. In my life we’ve had Ford, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama. Not one party, not one dictator. I get to vote for my President, my Senator, my Congress-person, my state Representative, my state Senator, my state governor, my county council, my city mayor, etc, etc, etc, etc. We have TOO damn much representation if anything.
And Fox News…er, Fake News, can go screw themselves with endlessly trying to find some way to make this Egypt thing bad and somehow Obama’s fault. LOL. This was a revolution by Twitter, by the people, it was THIS kind of revolution:
Fox News ridiculously slanted coverage is a hoot. There is NO Muslim Brotherhood in this revolution. They’re a small group. I’m SURE they’ll try to position themselves in the new order, but if it’s a straight Democracy, they’re moot. This was a Twitter/Facebook middle class revolution.
http://flic.kr/p/9geNXC
@11
Spain has better food than France, so I vote for Spain.
@16: Blasphemy!
@14
IMHO it would be more accurate to replace your last 2 instances of the word “government” by “multi-national corporations”.
The conservatives are having heart attacks, proclaiming that this is the end of Egypt, because it’s going to go the way of Iran or Taliban Afganistan.
But one writer today pointed out that it’s just as likely that opponants of the current regime in Iran might take this as an opportunity to throw out the Iranian regime.
Watch now for the old tried-and-true tactic as ousted Mubarak supporters cry to American politicans, interest groups, and politicians about (a) how they are being mistreated, (b) how evil the new regime is, (c) how the new regime threatens our interests, (d) how the new regime is immensely unpopular, and only a small show of force by the U.S. would topple it and put the pro-Mubarak forces back in charge.
We saw this in China in the 1930’s and 1940’s and Chiang Kai Shek’s wife (the “Dragon Lady”) made the circuits of Washington D.C. trying to convince Americans that no matter how curropt her husband’s government was, we should support him with more money and supplies anyway. Of course, most of that was wasted.
We saw it again in Cuba, resulting in the Bay of Pigs fiasco (turns out the average Cubans weren’t waiting for a signal to revolt against Castro after all). But where we saw it in spades was in Vietnam, as the Vietnamese upper-class successfully convinced the U.S. that the war was about holding the line against Communisim in S.E. Asia. What we should have known, but didn’t, was the war was primarily a civil war by former elite “servants & managers” under the French colonial system, against the primarily Buddist peasants and various war-lords who had local control over parts of the country. The number of communists among the Viet Cong was actually small, until we drove them to the communists as the only method of support against the U.S. intervention there.
We saw it again in Iraq, where the Bush administration thought they could simply hand over the country to an Iraqi expatriate who had no current support within Iraq, but assured the Bush administration that the Iraqis would flock to him for support. When that quickly fizzled within a matter of days, we were forced to try to engage in nation-building in a place where the British and the Iraqis themselves had failed to be able to bring together the disparate parties with centuries-old feuds.
@19: Oh, Puddy, how quickly you forget.
Bachmann wants her consituents armed and dangerous. Rand Paul’s supporters curb-stomped a protestor. Carl Paladino carried a baseball bat around and threatened to “take out” a reporter. Joe Miller’s campaign put a reporter for the Alaska Daily News in handcuffs and restrained him. Dino Rossi’s camp called the cops to drive reporters away from “press conferences.” People called for a lynching of Patty Murray. A gentleman from California threatened to shoot Rep. McDermott and his entire family if taxes on his $3M trust fund were raised. And Sarah Palin is running around telling people to reload. Tea partiers all.
Nope, no violence here. Move along.
Oh, plus Sharron Angle calling for “Second Amendment Remedies.” Such peaceful folk, these Tea Partiers.
@20
Puddy’s comment was marked as Spam and removed. With Goldy leaving this blog up to the rest of us, I’m probably going to be more of a hard-ass on comments that are intentionally nonsensical (in my own threads). If Puddy wants his comments to remain up, they have to be coherent.
Puddy, you really don’t want to go there. Need we show you the video – made less than six months ago – of two Tea-Party “security” thugs stomping on the head of a girl who didn’t weigh half as much as either of them? How about the Tea-Party candidates advocating “first amendment remedies” if they lose at the ballot box? Lots of other examples, I’ve only got so much time here…
And that’s not even counting the culture of violence being advocated by a number of Tea Party folks, and the rather convenient attempted assasination of a democratic Congresswoman, and bombs left beside the route of an M.L.King Jr. parade? Of course, you will argue that those weren’t really Tea Party types, but those acts certainly fit within the rhetoric being employed by the Tea Part at the time.
@23
The saddest thing is that the only part of Puddy’s comment that was even remotely coherent was so incredibly wrong, it’s scary. The Tea Party is absolutely a representation of insider wealth and privilege that feels threatened. If you don’t think that they’re more inclined to use violence to protect what they feel is being taken from them, then you’re just not paying attention.
If anyone is wondering what I consider incoherent, here’s the section of the comment that I felt warranted me marking it as Spam:
Sorry, but that’s not a coherent comment. This is the ramblings of someone who belongs in a mental hospital.
Puddy, if you want to participate in my comment threads, your comments have to make sense. I’m not putting up with this shit any more. I’m not Goldy. I like to see actual discussion/debate in my threads. I don’t mind if people criticize me or disagree with each other. I’m just not putting up with insane rambling that makes no sense.
So you are now blocking me Lee
Oh please. The video posted by me had that fool Lauren Valle trying to push the stick of her sign into the suburban INTO THE FACE of Rand Paul. She failed in her mission and got a beat down for it. Notice once the video appeared only you, rhp6033 and Steve continue to use this?
@25
Yeah, I’m with ya on pulling stuff like that down.
So rhp6033 wanna revisit the video I posted here and ylb can corroborate it through his databaze showing Lauren Valle trying to attack Rand Paul in the suburban?
Yes it’s nonsensical where leftist Kirsten Powers writes in the Daily beast about the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.
Yes it’s nonsensical when the Saudi King tells Obama don’t think about starting any regime change.
Yes it’s nonsensical to stop any comparison between the tactics of the Egyptian protesters to Tea Party members.
And it’s really nonsensical when a whackamole@15 claims it’s only Fox News screaming over the Muslim Brotherhood when Yahoo News carries an AP article proving otherwise and Lee yanks it because it hurt his feelings.
@26
No, I’m not blocking you. I’m marking your comments as Spam if they’re intentionally nonsensical. Your first comment was complete nonsense and I blockquoted the proof for everyone to see.
@27
The situation with Lauren Valle is certainly analogous to the violent reaction to the protests in Egypt. Putting a sign in someone’s face is not illegal, yet she was injured by a man after she’d been restrained. Both acts stem from an attitude that violence against those who protest is acceptable.
Oh so now someone is “acknowledging” the wooden sign in the car incident? It is illegal when you try to use it as a weapon pushing it into the open window of a car!
So why did Lauren Valle wear a wig to hide herself? Why was she trying to push her sign into the Suburban? Imagine if she hit Rand Paul in the face or eye? Imagine if someone did that to a DUMMOCRAPT? It’s would be at least three thread headings on this blog!
@30
The proof of how your comment made no sense is posted for everyone to see in comment #25. There are several sentences that appear in sequence as if they’re related yet make absolutely no sense in the order they appear. They appear to have been written by someone with mental health problems. That’s why it was marked as spam.
If you have specific points to make, make them coherently. Otherwise, your comments will be marked as Spam and go to the same place the Viagra ad comments go.
@32
Oh so now someone is “acknowledging” the wooden sign in the car incident? It is illegal when you try to use it as a weapon pushing it into the open window of a car!
It is not illegal to hold it in front of a car window. I’ve seen the video and you can clearly see that Valle is doing nothing more than holding the sign up to the window of the car, not trying to use it as a weapon. Police have seen this video. If they thought that she was using the sign as a weapon, she would’ve been charged. She hasn’t.
Unlike you Xar, I place links… So here’s another beat down
Armed and dangerous with knowledge and facts. That scares a liberal like you.
People called for a lynching of Clarence Thomas.
Sounds like headless lucy and all his personalities attended that rally.
Ed Schultz (who really watches that fool) prays for the death of Dick Cheney
DUMBOCRAT Congressman Bob Etheridge chokes a student reporter This comment said it all…
Fake News from fake journalists about Sara Palin
Puddy
IMO two wrongs don’t make it right.
Do I think the actions of the woman were foolish and wrong? Yes. Does that in any way legitimate two much larger males wrestling her down to the ground, pinning her there and stomping her head? Hell NO….
Dude what’s wrong with your moral compass if you think that’s OK just because she attempted to shove sign at Sen Paul? She’s an idiot no doubt….But come on!
Bottom line, what she did was foolish, what they did was criminal.
Lee you are delusional truly delusional. In the video, Lauren Valle Moveon.org plant, went to the car and tried to push the sign into the car.
Right Stuff, If you remember I said the guy was wrong. It’s in the great ylb databaze. So I’ll say it again… the guy was wrong to step on her shoulder . It was not her head. Watch the video again. If she didn’t try to “attack” Rand Paul she would have been left alone.
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If Puddy wants his comments to remain up, they have to be coherent.
Coherence, Puddyfucker. Null set.
Puddybud,
“In the video, Lauren Valle…tried to push the sign into the car.”
No she didn’t. That is a series of neuronal misfiring in your head.
And, BTW, Rujax!, Puddy, Grungy…keep that irrelevant shit confined to open threads. Name calling in non-open threads is fine, if it is somehow tied into the topic or subsequent discussion.
What video did you watch perfesser?
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Puddybud,
I did see the video that you imagine a assault was underway. You are, as usual, demented.
But this is NOT the topic of this thread. Move ANY subsequent discussion on the topic out of this thread to an open thread.
Egypt.
The question is, will the army just wait this out and gradually return to the ways of the old regime? Will the people insist on a fair distribution of power and economic resources? Will there be a purge of the CIA for blatant, stupid, and unforgivable incompetence?*
Except for the last question, time will tell.
*As Talleyrand allegedly said, “It was worse than a crime. It was a mistake.”
Wrong thread
Jayzus fuck. Demonstrations planned in Libya, Algeria, Syria, Puddyfucker’s back yard, ETC.
Let FREEDOM RING!
This weekend could be a real shit storm. Now is the time to take the House of Saud out.
Drones for Progress! Taking out a wedding party in wajeripuddyfuckstan just doesn’t do it. Taking out the Saudi Bourbons….priceless.
Cruise missile liberals! Wake up! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
If you truly believe that well timed and competently conducted military intervention will do the trick, speak up or go to Peter Beinart hell.
That really IS the question. But, it doesn’t look that way to me. Wouldn’t the army need all the same help that Mubarak got from the west? Both Obama and David Cameron have made it very clear that they want to see the protestors wishes for democracy honored.
@50
Protests coming in Iran too.
@Lee:
Observation: Seemingly coherent nonsense is still allowed, apparently.
@50: Wouldn’t the army need all the same help that Mubarak got from the west?
It would help, yes. But it is not necessary.
Both Obama and David Cameron have made it very clear that they want to see the protestors wishes for democracy honored.
Pure pablum, mike. Obama has been prez for what, two years? Did he ream Mubarak for being a dictator? Just once?
@52: David Cameron is a conservative asshole.
@54
There’s a big difference between supporting the guy who’s in office and supporting who comes next.
@55
Yep!
@56: Dictator’s….you’re either fer ’em or agin’em. What comes next is….what comes next.
If you’re a real proggie, you have to consistently advocate more democracy…even if the fuckers vote against you.
It’s an ironclad principle.
@57
Obama’s Republican-lite, but I think he’ll do the right thing and take the credit cards away if it looks like the military plans on sticking around in the drivers seat for too long.
Waste, Fraud, And Abuse
“At around $700 billion a year including war expenditures, [America’s military budget is] as big as those of the world’s next 20 highest military spenders combined. Last year American defence spending exceeded the average spent during the cold-war years by 50% (adjusted for inflation), while in the past 10 years it has grown by 67% in real terms.”
http://www.economist.com/node/18114525
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Gee, and who was in charge for 8 of the last 10 years???
Why Do Republicans Hate Workers?
“Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) — Congressional Republicans are using scare tactics to push a bill blocking bailouts of state pensions as a way to undermine government unions, said John Stanton, a lawyer for the California State Teachers’ Retirement System.
“‘They are peddling fright about the supposed imminent insolvency of public pension plans,’ Stanton said yesterday at a meeting of the second-largest U.S. public pension fund’s board. ‘It really is an attack on the public-employee unions.’
“U.S. Representative Devin Nunes, a California Republican, has proposed requiring state pension plans to report their liabilities based on … Treasury rates. That would enlarge estimated unfunded obligations because Treasuries typically provide lower returns …. Nunes’s bill would prevent the federal government from sending aid to help states cover unfunded pension obligations. …
“Republicans [claim] the public funds need bailouts, which is a ‘red herring,’ Stanton said. …’It’s not been lost on the Karl Rove crowd that the only group that was able to keep up with them in federal campaign spending was public-employee unions,’ said Stanton ….”
http://www.businessweek.com/ne.....-says.html
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Well, it looks like Republicans have been caught lying again. All for the purpose of bashing government workers. They want public pensions to fail. That’s why they looted the U.S. economy and caused a huge financial markets crash. What Republicans are really after is repealing the 14th Amendment. This time, they’re not going to discriminate against blacks. It finally dawned on them that they’ll make more money if they enslave all of us.
I thought quitting was a bad thing. When Palin stepped-down, liberals called her a quitter. But when Mubarak quit, you applauded his action.
Also, you liberals used to say angry mobs that dislike the government are bad. But now you are calling them good, even patriotic.
It’s so hard to know where a liberal stands.
@61 It’s easy to know where you stand. You stand with your legs spread apart to get your head up your ass.
Well, since the U.S. military budget is bigger than the next 20 biggest military spenders, we should be able to cut our defense spending in half and still spend 10 times as much as the next biggest military spender.
re 35: “Dumbocrats”???? Are they Democrats with big ears?
Roger, have you noticed how many corporations have quit providing life long pensions, what makes you think that citizens are going to continue to feel the need to provide such luxurious benefits to government workers in this economy?
Well, since the U.S. military budget is bigger than the next 20 biggest military spenders, we should be able to cut our defense spending in half and still spend 10 times as much as the next biggest military spender.
—
You’re putting your math prowess on display again, RR.
@ 66
You’re putting your math prowess on display again, RR.
You’re putting on a display of your nit-picking prowess again. Perhaps you’d like to put on a display of your policy prowess instead?
How quickly Roger Dumb Rabbit forgets… And it’s from a university too Roger Dumb Rabbit.
So Roger Dumb Rabbit, are you proposing allowing DUMBOCRAT politicians erected year after year with heavy union funding being in charge of fixing the union pension benefit shortfalls? Isn’t that having the union on both sides of the bargaining table?
Just checking Roger Dumb Rabbit.
How anybody can take the idiot rabbits posts seriously is beyond me.
talk about a senile old fuck who blathers on….
Still no answer from Roger Dumb Rabbit on #68.
Roger, it’s not a tough question. Well it does require some thought!