I’ll be at tonight’s Drinking Liberally at the Montlake Ale House, and I’ll be staying late because I have no radio show to go home to. If you are going to DL, read my question and think about it, and then we’ll argue about it tonight.
Question: Is universal healthcare the same as single-payer healthcare to you? That is, do those two mean the same things to you? Also, would you accept a healthcare compromise that used “conservative” means (ie, the free market, etc) to reach “liberal” ends (affordable, good quality healthcare for every American)?
Think about it, and I’ll see you tonight @ 8pm.
***UPDATE***
Good answers, everybody! Although the turnout was a bit low at tonight’s DL, there were some good answers to the question. Even the right-wing trolls got in on the act. I especially like this answer:
And by the way… nobody is entitled to anything in this world. Nothing. Including health care.
If you want good health care, get off your ass and earn it. It really is that fucking simple…
Unfortunately, lots of the folks without insurance are full time workers, not the “lazy poor”:
Today over 70 percent of the 41 million uninsured Americans come from families where there is at least one full-time worker.
But good try, folks!
520’S SHOCKING PRICE TAG
Rising construction costs are likely to hit Bellevue-Seattle commuters hard — the price tag on a 520 replacement is now over $4 billion.
“OLYMPIA, Wash. – Tolls to finance a new six-lane floating bridge across Lake Washington could be nearly $10 when the proposed replacement along State Route 520 is opened in 2015, a legislative committee has been told.
“Financing and cost estimates for replacing the … Evergreen Point floating bridge … were presented Monday at a House Transportation Committee hearing.
“In the most optimistic outlook with tolls to finance construction, the round-trip charge for motorists would range from … $6.90 to $9.90 when traffic begins flowing over the new span in 2015, lawmakers were told. The low end assumes that the same toll would be levied on Interstate 90 across the Mercer Island floating bridge ….”
And that’s ON TOP OF a regional tax increase to help pay for the AWV and 520 megaprojects.
Quoted under Fair Use; for complete story and/or copyright info see http://tinyurl.com/22numy
We’ve tried the private market approach for 75 years and it’s a miserable failure. There is zero competition in this market; it’s impossible for consumers to price-shop or compare quality of care. Consumers are being ruthlessly exploited by greedy insurance companies that take over 25% of our health care dollars off the top — and these middleman add no value whatsoever. Their only function is to deny claims. Errors, overcharges, and outright fraud are rampant. Meanwhile, employers are bailing out of the employer-based insurance system as fast as they can, and every year more and more Americans are left with no insurance. Those who do have employer-provided health insurance are asked to pay more of the premium every year, and now the Republicans want to tax these benefits as income. Face it, America’s health care delivery system is imploding and needs a complete overhaul. It’s time to scrap our antiquated, costly, inefficient system for one that delivers better quality care to more people at lower cost.
Doesn’t single-payer mean that someone else will pay for everyone’s health care except those receiving the care?
Single payer means the gov guarantees the right to healthcare for all its citizens. Otherwise, you can keep what we have now: torture resulting in murder.
@2 Once again Mac has proved herself to be a simpleton who merely regurgitates wingnut cliches.
@3 No, single payer means you eliminate the insurance companies. Conceivably, you could have the government act as a single payment point for a system that does NOT guarantee health care for everyone.
Insurance companies take 25% off the top and do absolutely nothing except push paperwork in circles.
Roger’s comments are true! I am spending several hundreds of dollars of my time and WDS trying to get reimbursed for my flexible spending account – What a crock!
Roger,
I agree with your claim that the insurance companies are taking the money off of the top as profit. What do you call what the hospitals are doing? They charge 20 bucks for a fucking aspirin and tell you it’s to pay for those who don’t have insurance. Then they bill the State for those who don’t have insurance and the feds kick the hospitals money too………… all for the same people who don’t have insurance.
Roger Rabbit says:
Insurance companies take 25% off the top and do absolutely nothing except push paperwork in circles.
01/30/2007 at 6:00 pm
Big deal, that nothing compared to what the leeching lawyers take. I would rather have the insurance companies get it than the lawyers.
@8: In a sense you are right. When they are not denying healthcare outright (denying membership in the group), insurance companies just weed out the unhealthy and pass their costs on to us. That’s why an aspirin costs 20 fucking bucks. In essence, the insurance companies are a carbuncle on the market. Like all carbuncles, they should be excised. Universal care is the only way to go. You can shout “socialism” all you want. My reply is quite simple: “Sure. So fucking what, nimrod?”
@9: You are an idiot liar who made a claim (“that’s nothing….yadda, yadda..) that is unsupported by any semblance of a fact. Typical conservative whining. By the way, I thought you dorks liked rich people. Aren’t they the “producers”? Fucking lunatic.
Keep your greedy fucking hands off my healthcare. Here’s the deal: If you want what I’ve got, do what I do. If you’re too fucking lazy or stoopid, or if you lack the moral character to do what it takes, tough fucking shit.
Hey Goldy – How’s the finance campaign coming? Are you up to $87,000 like Tim?
Fucking loser….
Ok so we fire all the insurance companies. Just what the hell are we gonna do with all the out of work insurance agents????
What is gonna happen to the 85 year old grandma who has had 3 strokes and a heart attack, pay for the new heart?
Sorry guys, in France, grandma would have been put to pasture after the first stroke, are we Americans ready for that Yet?
Honest, I don’t think I am. Not programmed quite yet for Hemlock society, or should I say, the Politically Correct Hemlock Society.
We already have universal health care. The folks without insurance wait wait wait wait until they get very sick, they they go to the e-room, where it costs about 10,000 X more.
Ain’t we smart!
And somehow we talk about “free market” which totally fails because the product we are talking about is one you do NOT want to use, nullifying the happy talk.
re13: Well, at least the unemployed insurance workers won’t lose their health insurance!
And don’t forget to use your real name and don’t hide behind a fake moniker!
I hate that. Then I can’t get into your life and ruin it.
The hospital I was born in is aboot a mile from the Canadian border eh?
That hospital is now reporting a boom in business from Canadians coming to Murka to get the care that they can’t get in Canada because of the fucked up “universal” health care system they have up there. And they’re paying the whole bill out of pocket. Call to get an appointment in Canada, and you’ll wait a few months. Call to get an appointment here and it’s same day or next day. If it’s urgent they’ll getcha in right now.
So why the fuck would we want to wreck the best health care system in the world and turn it into a fucked up mess like Canada has? Maybe a few of you idiot fucking moonbats can explain that to me…
re 11: That damn socialist liberal in the White House wants to TAX your health program. Didn’t you hear his speech?
The only word in it that the chimp in chief actually wrote for himself was the word , “nucular”.
Poor richard
This is poor Christine
What are you do about grandma though…..
MTR — Go peddle your snake oil elsewhere. You are the problem, not the solution.
16 – NO ONE CARES WHERE YOU CAME FROM OR YOUR WORTHLESS OPINION.
JUST PAY YOUR FUCKING GAMBLING DEBT AND LEAVE!
Hey Dick @ 17 (short for Richard)
Tax my health care benny’s, at least I am “giving” something to somebody.
Dick 19 – See my post @11. So which are you?
1) Stoopid
2) Lazy
3) Lacking in moral character
4) All of the above
And by the way… nobody is entitled to anything in this world. Nothing. Including health care.
If you want good health care, get off your ass and earn it. It really is that fucking simple…
Hey Dick
What are you gonna do about grandma….. She has been admitted to your “new” hospital, but they say they can’t really do anything for her. No stints, stunts, balloons, as they are too costly. What should we do?
Let the goverment take care of her. Yeppppp.
She will not live much longer, cause you see, we can’t be paying for the elderly. They have served their purpose.
Your wife at 35 can have a full scale MRI, and detect anything, and we can treat it. But your mom, I am sorry, has lived a good life, and doesn’t deserve to be saved. So sorry. But that is the RULES. The goverment just can’t save everybody, and especially somebody that has used up her “allotment” of entitlements.
So this is the big picture. Look at it real close, cause we will see ourselves in it, in another 15 years or so.
Ok Dick
Grandma’s dead…..Sorry
@9 “Dan Rather says: Big deal, that nothing compared to what the leeching lawyers take. 01/30/2007 at 7:13 pm”
False. Legal costs and judgments amount to less than 1.5% of all health care spending — and lawyers get only 1/3 of that (or less). The rest goes to injured patients to pay for medical care, loss of earnings, etc., and to survivors who lost a loved one to incompetent medical care. If a negligent driver hits you with a car you expect to be compensated; if a negligent doctor or hospital kills or injures you, why shouldn’t they pay? Our health care is bad now; imagine what it would be like if doctors and hospitals knew they wouldn’t be held financially responsible for carelessness or mistakes.
Poor Christine says Goodnight….. I work in private sector and I have responsiblities to attend to tomorrow.
BTW Dick, your grandma didn’t die, but she could if it was up to some of the People who post here…….
MTR ‘n’ Friends: I hope you all get what you are giving. I’ve been around long enough to know that that is what often happens.
I gave $20 to St.Judes Hospital. No big deal on my part. But, if you can just open your heart and mind to the fact that a poor 5 year old from an impoverished family can’t “get off their ass and work for it!!!!”, a whole world of reality might open up for you.
The neo-cons had their little test tube “free market”. It’s called Iraq. It’s a mess.
You guys need to get out of the way or you are gonna get run over. “There’s a Slow Train Comin’.” Robert Zimmerman
@10 We already have socialized medicine. First of all, our taxes pay the medical bills of poor people who quality for Medicaid. Second, most of the 47 million uninsured get health care; their bills are written off by providers, and passed on to the paying customers in higher prices. So you’re already paying for their health care, too — in the most expensive way possible, via costly ER care.
Let’s look at some numbers. Approximately 17% of the U.S. population does not have health insurance or qualify for a government program. Insurance companies get 25% for paper pushing that costs only 1% in the government-run Medicare program. If we nationalize the paper pushing and save 24%, you can cover all of the uninsured and still have a 7% price cut left over. That’s why we should have a government-run single payer system and get rid of the insurance companies.
@11 Big talk for a deadbeat whose $100 account is more than 1 year past due.
@13 “Ok so we fire all the insurance companies. Just what the hell are we gonna do with all the out of work insurance agents????”
Gee, lots of things. They could write software, or start new companies, or design more efficient buildings, or work on next-generation energy technologies, or find the cure for cancer, or … lots of things. Something, anything, more PRODUCTIVE than pushing useless paperwork in meaningless circles.
P.S., this appears to be the first time in the history of the universe that any wingnut ever worried about someone else losing their job. Fucking hypocrite …
Hey kiropunk — the railroad industry has a term for what all those insurance agents do. They call it “featherbedding.”
SLOW TRAIN, Bob Dylan 1979
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/slowtrain.html
“Sometimes I feel so low-down and disgusted
Can’t help but wonder what’s happenin’ to my companions,
Are they lost or are they found, have they counted the cost it’ll take to bring
down
All their earthly principles they’re gonna have to abandon?
There’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
All that foreign oil controlling American soil,
Look around you, it’s just bound to make you embarrassed.
Sheiks walkin’ around like kings, wearing fancy jewels and nose rings,
Deciding America’s future from Amsterdam and to Paris
And there’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Big-time negotiators, false healers and woman haters,
Masters of the bluff and masters of the proposition
But the enemy I see wears a cloak of decency,
All non-believers and men stealers talkin’ in the name of religion
And there’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend.
People starving and thirsting, grain elevators are bursting
Oh, you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it.
They say lose your inhibitions, follow your own ambitions,
They talk about a life of brotherly love, show me someone who knows how to
live it. There’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend.”
Hope I’m not abusing my posting priviliges. But I only excerpted the song.
@16 “the best health care system in the world”
Let’s evaluate the accuracy of this assertion, which shouldn’t be difficult, as there are objective measures (e.g., infant mortality, longevity, etc.) that professionals use.
” … the U.S. ranks only 37th in the world in quality health care …” http://tinyurl.com/32oczl
Just as I thought!! Mark the Bet Welsher is full of shit.
Use your real name on the internet … like I do!
@16 “the best health care system in the world”
Let’s evaluate the accuracy of this assertion, which shouldn’t be difficult, as there are objective measures (e.g., infant mortality, longevity, etc.) that professionals use.
” … the U.S. ranks only 37th in the world in quality health care …” http://tinyurl.com/32oczl
Just as I thought!! Mark the Bet Welsher is full of shit.
(Source of data: World Health Organization)
@23 “And by the way… nobody is entitled to anything in this world. Nothing. Including health care.”
That’s not true. When you lose a bet with someone, he’s entitled to be paid. Pay up, deadbeat!
@24 Now that you mention it, there might be some merit to pulling the plug on ALL of you brain-dead Republicans.
Speaking of welshers and freeloaders, are the wingnut donations to HA up to 1 cent yet?
I rather doubt the ‘nuts have donated anything,
I’ve made my modest contribution. . .gotta keep those liberal channels open.
Can anyone at WSDOT tell me why one (1) — count ’em, ONE — 4-lane floating bridge costs more than an aircraft carrier?
The Golden Gate Bridge was built in 1937 for $36.7 million. Yeah there’s been some inflation since then — but 120 times? That’s what WSDOT’s cost estimate for the Evergreen Point Bridge is — at $4.38 billion, 120 times as much. And the EPB doesn’t have any towers or suspension cables; it’s shorter, and uses vastly less steel. Where the hell is all that money going, anyway? Do they mix the concrete with gold dust?
WSDOT is planning to charge $10 just to cross the bridge once ON TOP OF regional taxes you’ll have to pay even if you never use the bridge! Who will get all this money for building a bunch of concrete pontoons only 1.4 miles long?
This isn’t sticker shock, it’s sticker haert attack!
They must be planning to knock down Bill Gates’s $75 million house to widen the roadway.
Cripes, this bridge is gonna cost almost as much as Rev. Moon has poured into rightwing blogs.
The current system is not a free market. States regulate what insurance can be offered, and by whom. You can’t shop for insurance across state lines. You can’t get a bare-bones insurance policy because the nannies of the state have declared that you must have coverage for pregnancy and chiropractors.
The tax system allows deductions to corporations but not to individuals. Think what would happen if all those people insured by the big companies were now free to shop for the best policy, any where in the country, and get the same tax advantage. And imagine that those who are working but not insured were given the same tax advantage that corporations are given. Now we are approaching a competitive market.
You don’t get car insurance to cover gas or an oil change. If you want to buy a really expensive car, they will toss in a life time of oil changes. But you knew that going in, and paid the price. The health insurance industry doesn’t work that way.
Hey, Roger, how much has George Soros poured into Dem politics and blogs? How much has the Adobe founder spent on Air America, propping it up long after it should have been declared dead?
How big is John Edwards new home? How many homes does John Kerry have?
When did Ted Kennedy ever have to work for a living?
HEY JANET S, HOW MUCH HAS A WHOLE SLEW OF MILLIONAIRES AND BILLIONAIRES NOT TO MENTION CORPORATIONS HAVE POURED INTO THE WINGNUT POLITICS YOU LIVE AND BREATHE?
HOW BIG ARE CHENEY AND RUMSFELD’S HOUSES THAT YOU WINGNUTS WENT POSTAL ON THE NY TIMES FOR TAKING PICTURES.
OOOOOOOOOOHH!! GEORGE SOROS SO SCARY A GUY TO WINGNUTS! KEEPS YOU AWAKE AT NIGHT FOR FUNDING ORGANIZATION THAT CALL BULLSHIT ON YOUR BANKRUPT POLITICS.
HIDE! HIDE WINGNUTS! SOROS IS COMING WITH HIS OPEN SOCIETY!
THE NEO-CONS ON FAUX NEWS HAVE TRAINED YOU TO HATE HIM!! YOU GOTTA DO EVERYTHING THEY TELL YOU!
THEY DO THE THINKING FOR YOU! HERE’S YOUR TALKING POINTS! PERFORM ON CUE!
@43 “Hey, Roger, how much has George Soros poured into Dem politics and blogs? How much has the Adobe founder spent on Air America, propping it up long after it should have been declared dead?”
Much less than the $3 billion that Moon has dumped into the Washington Times, and they didn’t get their money from drug trafficking, illegal arms dealing, and money laundering.
Whatsamatter Janet Slut, are you a tad embarrassed that the rightwing noise machine is financed with dirty money? Goldy raises cash for HA one donor at a time; Moon has slaves working for him in sweat shops all over the Pacific Rim. The source of funds for rightwing bloggers and publications is as noxious as their lies and smears.
What do you suppose Moon is buying with all that money? And with the millions he’s paid to George H. W. Bush as “speaking fees”? He’s certainly not pushing wingnut causes because he’s a Republican — this guy wants to destroy the U.S. government and install himself as a global dictator! Can you say
P R O T E C T I O N
?
That’s right, Moon is paying off Republicans to not investigate his criminal enterprises, not prosecute him, and to give him refuge in the U.S.
@43 “How many homes does John Kerry have?”
One.
As for the other 5 homes that wingnuts claim Kerry owns, read these three sentences very carefully:
“John and Teresa Kerry signed a prenuptial agreement and have kept their premarital assets separate.
“The Boston townhouse … is the only one of these homes that they own as a couple; the other four belonged to Teresa before her 1995 marriage to John Kerry, and some of them are even still listed under the name of her late husband.
” … the Italian villa bought by actor George Clooney … was owned not by John or Teresa Kerry, but by Mrs. Drue Heinz, a relative of Teresa’s … ”
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/homes.asp
Janet Stupid spews wingnut talking points with no idea of whether the crap she types is true or false.
Keep it up, Janet! I love making you into a fool!
You should do a little fact-checking before making a public ass of yourself, Janet.
I’ve updated the post, folks! Refresh your browser and take a look!
If you’re going to cite Bob Dylan, the least you could do is “Rainey Day Woman.”
@37, Roger,
It’s been over 1 cent since the first day………….
@43 “How big is John Edwards new home?”
Oh, I give up, Janet Liar. What does Wingnut Central say? Ten square miles? Is this where Republican liars claim Edwards lives? http://tinyurl.com/ymxckh
For an illustration of the bullshit GOP liars circulate about Edwards, see http://tinyurl.com/2ob8el
Hey Janet Slimeball — can you tell us why a sitting President needs a 98,000-acre ranch in Paraguay? You know … Paraguya … a landlocked South American country that harbored Nazi fugitives and has no extradition treaty with the U.S.? http://tinyurl.com/2qz6l7
@53 I didn’t mean YOU, Mac. You’re a wingnut idiot only 50% of the time, so your donation doesn’t count. I had in mind the likes of Mark the Deadbeat, Puddy-Sucks-No-Mater-What-Name-He-Uses, Aunty Looney, and their ilk.
Sillyguy @ 7:
Exactly what kind of problems are you having with your flexible spending account? My wife is trying to get her money out of her FSA, and your post is making both of us nervous.
@51 Will — Mark the Retarded Deadbeat lays that lame line on us every week. As if someone who has a $100 account more than 1 year past due should be lecturing the rest of us about paying our way … and it’s typical of the bumper sticker falsehoods the blathering right flings out into the blogosphere like so many soap bubbles. If Mark thinks he isn’t paying for the uninsured now, he’s living under a rock.
Roger,
Have you checked out McDermott’s plan? He had one posted on his website. IT takes all of the government programs and sends the money to the states to implement a single payer system in each state.
Roger,
I can’t speak for them, but bandwidth cost money and I enjoy the site.
Roger @ 39:
My wife is a retired WSDOT employee, and your post about the Evergreen Pt. Floating Bridge has been referred to someone who might be able to give you an answer as to why it costs so much. Keep those big ol’ ears of your open.
But I’ll bet insurance has something to do with it!
@57 No, I haven’t, and while the idea sounds appealing “the devil is in the details.”
If the health care in Canada is so poor how do they manage to have a life expectancy of 2+ years more than US citizens? Canada is ranked 12th in the world, the US is 48th. Must be the high octane beer eh?
@59 I’ll bet insurance has something to do with it, too. But it’s also true that the cost of all construction commodities — concrete, lumber, steel, etc. — has gone through the roof. Why? Well, for starters, check out this photo of a Chinese city skyline — see all the construction cranes? http://tinyurl.com/yqx8dx And who’s paying for it? Why, we are, of course. Bush borrowed all that money he give to millionaires as tax breaks, sold the debt to China, and we pay taxes so our government can pay interest to the Chinese government, which uses the money to buy construction materials and equipment (and cars and oil and … ). So there’s been a worldwide run on cement and plywood and steel and …
And don’t forget the back bacon, SCTV and Rush!
@59 Take a good look at this picture: http://tinyurl.com/22w6br
The Evergreen Point Bridge is nothing but a roadway on top of a bunch of concrete pontoons. Now divided $4.38 billion by 7,578 feet — how the fuck can concrete pontoons cost $577,988.92 per lineal foot? That’s almost as much as fancy kitchen countertops.
Maybe it’s the landscaped cover with the one-source fire suppression system installed on the inside of the cover……
or maybe it’s the stormwater collection system they plan on installing around it………
What is wrong with putting a “normal” bridge as a replacement for the floating bridge? Is there some reason that a suspension bridge won’t work there?
I’m new here. Can someone identify for me the species that Mark Kennedy comes from?
@63 No bedrock.
Chadt@64,
I’m not sure, but I think it may be related to the elephant.
@64 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockroach
So here’s another shining example of how full of cow shit the right wingers are. They claim to be pro-life, but would rather make that coward (and very bad shot) WHATADICK Cheney a zillionaire by giving our tax money to him and his war-profiteering pals, rather than spend one single cent to help a poor child with serious health problems. They see no problem letting someone die from lack of health care, yet they want to fucking nuts over an abortion – that will – wait for it – lead to a child who they are willing to let die later for lack of health care.
What fucking universe do these utter morons come from? Not mine for certain.
Poor Richard says: I gave $20 to St.Judes Hospital.
Wow Poor Richard, good for you. I’m shocked and amazed. Is that you final offer? I spread over $1000 to “hospitals” last year. Muscular Dystrophy, Sicklecell Anemia, Cystic Fibrosis, etc. are on my list. Jerry Lewis and Danny Thomas have been receiving my money since Danny was alive and Jerry was thin!
Ever see someone die of Sicklecell Anemia? Meet me at the Seattle Federal Building. For Moonbat!s, you must have more than $1000 charitable contributions to meet me. Otherwise don’t waste my time. We’ll compare receipts.
JSA – You’ve been quiet. I know you are raking in the dough. My last 3520 port install paid very well. Do you give $1000 or more to charity.
I keep telling Moonbat!s to come downtown. All you IDIOTS complain about life but don’t do anything about it. Yet you hate Faith Based Initiatives!
YOS LIB BRO says: HOW BIG ARE CHENEY AND RUMSFELD’S HOUSES THAT YOU WINGNUTS WENT POSTAL ON THE NY TIMES FOR TAKING PICTURES.
Clueless, Bawa Streisand went ballistic when her 11000+ sq ft coastal resource wasting home was posted on the Internet.
Government people get upset because loony Moonbat!s such as yourself can triangulate on important peoples’ homes and attack them. Nuff said there baby.
Apparently Kos didn’t post an article how the British in Basra are upset because through Google the latitude and longitude of their Iraqi barracks was available and your friends (‘cuz you stated your Israeli hatred last year) launched mortar rounds at their sleeping facilities!
Left Turdball @68: You mean the $353 Al Gore gave or the soiled underwear Bill Clinton gave to charity?
Froggy@38: We only give to official charities. I didn’t see Voice of Scratching Chalk register himself anywhere.
No one has yet mentioned the most interesting thing about post 13 — that Kiroking is apparently posting from an alternate universe where there are no such things as home, fire, auto and theft insurance, among many others, for insurance agents to sell if there is no need for health insurance.
But then worrying over much about wingnut trolls think has never been much of a concern around here.
Once again you have to travel to the UK to find the truth about the Moonbat! libtards who post here.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....vet130.xml
How cannabis use causes schizophrenia
Studies have shown that heavy use of cannabis can be associated with a fourfold increased risk of developing schizophrenia.
Finally determined what causes Moonbat!itis
Every child in this country should have health care.
Every adult in this country should have basic health care covering preventitive medicine and ongoing health problems. As things stand, for instance, if you have diabetes and are uninsured, you are not likely to ever get insurance, and your health concerns are only going to get worse, not better, especially without treatment.
Goldy – Are you really as fucking stoopid as the shit you write?
First, stop telling fucking lies. There are NOT 42 million uninsured Americans. The number you and the rest of the lying fucking moonbats cite includes illegal aliens. Fuck them. So the actual number is more like 20 million. With a national population of over 300 million, we’re talking about 6% of the population. So why the fuck would we screw up the best health care system in the world for the 94% to accommodate the 6%?
Second, my medical insurance is part of the confiscatory compensation package that I’m able to demand from my employer. It’s real simple: if they want guys like me working for them, they’re gonna pay me a lot of money and throw in lots of generous benefits including gold plated health insurance. Otherwise, guys like me go elsewhere, and they’d end up with fucking idiots like you on the payroll.
Third, just because somebody shows up to do a job that can be learned in 5 minutes does not mean that they are entitled to health insurance. If somebody isn’t in a position to demand health insurance, it’s because they lack the leverage that marketable skill provide. If they don’t like it, they can take advantage of the lavishly subsidized public school system to get the marketable skills needed to put themselves in a position to demand health care. It’s that fucking simple…
I made two comments last night, one a reasoned discussion about insurance, the other a flippant response to the inanity that is Roger’s postings. So what do all you seize on?
How stupid to waste time explaining that John Kerry doesn’t really get to live in all those homes his wife owns, since his name isn’t on the deed. And she probably doesn’t let him drive the multiple SUV’s that are kept at those homes.
Rumsfeld et al don’t rant and rave about two Americas and the downtrodden poor, while hypocritically living better than all but the top 1%. Edwards’ rhetoric is being exposed, the same as Gore flying around the country on private jets and driven in limosines complaining about wasteful use of resources and global warming.
Too bad Roger doesn’t see it. But, then, he is an angry old man caught up in hating everything that represents success.
It looks like DarrellRecklesslySucksButtPutty’s meltdowncontinues. Havin g a continuing iden tity crises there, Darrell. . .can’t decide if you are Reckless, or ButtPutty or Darrel. . .come one, man up! Just call yourself what you are: DarrellRecklesslySucksButtPutty. Either that or just sign yourself: Wingnut. . . .
Ah, Mr. Redneck. Please remember that old saying “everybody is entitled to their own opinion, nobody is entitled to their own facts”.
Source: http://www.cbpp.org/8-29-06health.htm
So you’re correct on one point, that the number of Americans that lack health insurance is not 42 million.
It’s over 46 million. Sorry for the confusion.
This seems to be happening quite a bit recently. My posts are vanishing into cyberspace. Let’s try again (apologies if multiple posts suddenly appear).
Mr. Redneck:
You called Goldy a liar because he made a claim that there were 42 million uninsured Americans. While I disagree that Goldy lied, I concur that he got his number wrong.
It isn’t 42 million Americans. The current number is approximately 46 million.
This is from the US Department of Health and Human Services (part of the Bush administration) report which is available at:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/rep...../index.htm
Other sources have the 2006 numbers even higher, but when I re-wrote this post, I thought I’d go to a source that even the neo-cons would have a hard time disputing.
Here’s another quote you folks should remember:
I realize that this will put a big crimp in your ability to argue your points, but remember that folks here actually have access to the Internet, and can check your numbers very quickly.
@ 73
Hey Yer killin me, if we put the health insurers out of business, do you think we will be able to AFFORD the other insurance offered???
Barelli – Don’t be a dumbshit… remember who yer talkin to.
Notice the clever wording in the CPS report…”uninsured individuals”. The FACT of the matter is that half of them are illegal aliens who shouldn’t be in the country at all. Fuck them.
The actual number of american citizens is HALF the number you fucking liars cite.
Nobody ever asks the question, “Why do we need to use the insurance principal to pay for health care in the first place.” Could it be that the salary expectations of health care folks are too high? Is it corporate greed? Is it frivolous health complaints?
The only way I see national health care “working” in this country is to mandate all health care workers (doctors, nurses, janitors in healthcare facilities, etc.) must be government employees and accept the salaries/wages dictated by government. Health insurance, as it presently exists, would be a moot point. It would have no reason to exist.
Somehow. I don’t think Americans will buy-into this idea. Does anyone thing this idea WOULD work?
Sorry, Mr. Redneck, but you’re wrong again.
From that same report:
Please note that the non-citizen 21% that is left also includes legal immigrants. It would take more time than I have immediately available to break that number down into legal/illegal categories, as the Bush administration did not choose to break down those categories in its report.
Mr. Redneck, I presume that you have the same access to the internet that I have, and I went to the trouble of finding a reference that you could believe. Could you please take the time to actually check a reference or two before just spouting off?
While it makes it much easier for me to dispute your claims, I really enjoy the challenge of debating with someone that actually understands what he is debating.
Please, stop making this so easy.
remember who yer talkin to.
A LOW-LIFE BET WELSHER.
PAY YOUR FUCKING GAMBLING DEBT.
Libertarian said:
This is almost the most un-Libertarian concept that I have ever read. An argument for this could be made (although I would be philosophically against it) but I have to assume that you are tossing this out more as a debating point than as a real proposal.
Considering that many of those health care workers don’t actually make that much money (do you have any idea of the starting pay of a certified medical assistant? – hint – it’s under ten bucks an hour) this idea seems a non-starter to me.
Joh Barelli,
Yes, I was throwing it out for debate. I DO NOT advocate the government taking-over the health care system, though I suspect that it the only way to achieve a single-payer, national health care system that some propose.
The comments were meant to be un-Libertarian in order to provoke comment and debate.
I have to admit that I’ve found Janet S. to be something of a disappointment. Janet, when you first showed up here, you presented yourself as an “uncertain Republican” who wasn’t entirely pleased with Dave Reichert but didn’t see a compelling reason to vote for the opposition. Since then, I’ve watched your postings devolve into nothing more than mindless invective and rote repetition of the “talking points” seemingly pulled straignt from the pages of the American Spectator or replayed from Faux News. Since you’ve come to be so predictable, it’s hard not to see you as a crashing bore. You’ve sunk to being nothing more than Mark the Redneck with different plumbing.
As to the health care issue, I’d like to ask what other nation in the industrialized world doesn’t have a single-provider system.
ArtFart,
You bring up a good point about other industrialized nations, but there are instances of our neighbors from the North coming here to get medical care. Many Canadians don’t want to wait for months to get help and would rather pay a US health provider than rely on Canada’s system.
If the US goes to a single-payer system, how will it work? Will funding come from income taxes, or will it be a separate charge? How will the costs be allocated? Will they be based on the income or accumulated wealth of the family? Will health providers’ incomes be controlled to rein-in costs? Will there be any co-pays to prevent malingering? How do we handle hypocondriacs? Will the pharmaceutical companies be told what they can charge for drugs and treatments? How will research be funded? If there are shortages of health care workers and resources, will the government resort to rationing? Will a nationalized system encourage people to enter the health care field? Will insuance companies become obsolete?
I don’t know about the rest of you, but there sure are a lost of uncertainties about converting to a national health care system run by government. I think I’ll stick with what we have.
Think bigger people. Ever heard of the Millennium Development Goals? Well, they’re goals we (and 190 other countries) agreed to accomplish by 2025, and a lot of them have to do with health related issues. The cost of achieving all the goals by 2015 is about $50 billion- now compare that to the $230 billion going to defense contractors annually.
How will doctors take the fall from power once the government tells them what they’ll get paid?
I doubt they’ll like it very much.
Hi, KatieL
Actually, I have read up a bit on the Millenium Development Goals and found them to be like many reports that come out of multi-government agencies. Sounds good, but worded rather vaguely.
Where there are specifics in the reports, they also sound good, but are either too vague, difficult to measure or are simply not going to happen, as the governments that would have to cooperate either don’t care or are actually causing the problems in order to reduce unwanted population or line their own pockets.
I think that the United Nations does far more good than harm, but when the wingnuts start complaining about the cost and how ineffective the UN seems to be in many areas, even the most liberal of us winces just a bit. Unlike so many of the far-right’s talking points, there is a (small) grain of truth in this one.
They are (my opinion) far better than nothing, as they provide some important services and act as an essential forum for discussion between governments, but even the most idealistic among us understands that they really don’t get much done. It’s sort of like reading a disappointing report card. Little Unie isn’t working up to his potential.
On the other hand, just because the goal will probably never be reached doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try. The discussion here in regards to reducing the number of people in this country that do not have health insurance is part of that effort.
You don’t solve the world’s problems by taking them all on at once. You take them on individually and make whatever headway you can. Fifty Billion dollars will not solve the issues addressed in the Millenium Development Goals. It might be a decent start, provided that we could actually get the money to the folks that need it most, but even that will be much harder than it sounds.
Why all this anger towards Fox News? The network does a great job of reporting the news, which they do at about 5 minutes and 35 minutes past the hour, day-in, day-out. That’s the news part, and they clearly delineate it as news. The other networks present thier “views” as news and take-up hours to it each day.
I’ll take the 5-minute summary, twice an hour, over any other network’s “news.”
re 81: Use of marijuwanee and the incidence of schizophrenics who use it does not prove causality. I t only proves that people with impending psychosis have more sense than a Republican because they at least attempt to self-medicate.
Using your reasoning model I could prove that eating mashed potatoes causes causes schizophrenia — or pot smoking. It probably IS true that pot smoking causes mased potato eating.
99 “How will doctors take the fall from power”
Are you kidding? What power? With the exception of surgeons and some other specialists who are really at the top of their game, they already get paid what the HMO’s, insurance companies and the gubmint (via Medicare, Medicaid, etc) dictate.
The few physicians I personally know who’ve opted out of the corporate “medical factory” system are doing even worse, trying to divvy up their time and energy between healing the sick and the demands of running a small business.
If you go look in staff section of a big hospital parking lot, chances are it’s the administrators who drove in in the Porsches and Benzes. The old Volvos belong to the docs.
101
You might just as well ask “Why the anger at being served a shit sandwich?” Whether it’s 20% bread and 80% shit, or 80% bread and 20% shit, it isn’t going to be palatable.
Pud @ 75:
I do OK, thanks. And yes, I’m above the $1000 mark in spite of not having a church or synagouge to contribute to.
Since I’m up in Canada, and am currently covered under the Evil Canadian Single-payer Healthcare system, I will make an observation.
Medicare, as it’s called here, pays for soap, water, and bandages medicine. It’s C$85/month. If I’m sick enough I want to see a doc, I go schedule an appointment and present my CareCard. No deductibles, no reimbursement, no nothing.
C$85/month only buys so much health care. You don’t have to count too good to understand that.
For people who want blanket health insurance, you or your employer can dig into the bank account and buy what you want on top of that. Plans cover drugs, dental, optical and what is fictionally called “travel insurance” (i.e. you can go to the United States for medical treatment).
The Canadian system is very inflexible about doctors being outside the Medicare network. An American can come up and give a doc cash for services rendered, but you can’t do that for Canadian citizens or residents.
Prime Minister Harper’s government has trial-ballooned the idea of a more modern public-private mix where doctors do basic services under Medicare, and specialized services are done on a fee basis, using supplementary insurance, or what have you. This has met with a lot of pushback from voters.
Like Washington’s lack of an income tax, in spite of grownup advice to do something a little more sane, it’s a religious issue and won’t happen any time soon.
The result is, of course, a lot of specialists who received training in Canada wind up in the US where they get paid more.
Taiwan, another place where I’ve spent a lot of time, has a mixed public-private system. The government provides basic single-payer care. Docs can do services for cash, get reimbursed by the quan min jian bao system, or take supplementary insurance. You get what you pay for. US-level healthcare is available. You will pay US-level prices.
The advantage of single-payer for the docs is consistency. You always know you’re going to get paid for basic services. Under the US system, something around 20% of all medical services go unreimbursed. I’ve been told this is true across the board, but emergency rooms have a higher deadbeat rate (more like 35-40, but don’t quote me on that). For those of you who sing for your supper, can you imagine working that way in any business? What would you do Pud if 20% of your integration clients just flat out didn’t pay? Well, your rates would go up for one thing. Docs don’t like working for free either, and so they do the same thing.
It also makes the collection process much more complicated than it needs to be. Most medical clinics in the ‘States have two or three employees whose sole job is to ride insurance companies for reimbursements. That is a cost, and you pay for it. In Canada, a doctor’s visit generates $X for the doc. The paperwork is a snap, and you don’t get any surprises. The government is stupid, but predictable.
Moonbats! everywhere: Puddybud doesn’t forget!
If this was such a big problem why didn’t Clinton solve this? He left 39.2 Million people without health insurance January 20, 2001. Didn’t do a damned thing about it. So if the number is now 42 Million, then only 3.8 million more were added after the 9/11 attack and the economic slow down and 11 million more illegals in the US since then. Hmmm… That’s not too bad.
pud @ 106:
* WHACK! *
“But Clinton!” is the lamest excuse in the book.
I know you’re not a drinker, but we should get together for that beer. I can tell you stories about IT and information flow in healthcare that will make your skin crawl. It’s a broken industry from top to bottom. Single-payer by itself (in any permutation) will not fix what is wrong with the industry. It will fix one small part of the problem, which is the level of fiscal anarchy caused by the thicket of overlapping coverage (and non-coverage) in basic services.
Now, more importantly, no president is God, and Clinton isn’t even terribly close. Insurance companies are some of the largest institutions on the planet in terms of market cap. This is a testament to how well economies of scale benefit insurance companies rather than the complete avaraciousness of corporations, but there’s some truth to the latter as well.
Any sort of single-payer health care, whether it’s a hardcore system like Canada or the UK, or a mixed public-private system would take a chunk of money out of the hands of insurers, and into the hands of the state.
Corporations don’t like being downsized any more than anyone else. Multi-billion dollar corporations have resources to explain how little they like being downsized. They do this with campaign contributions, PR, and not to put too fine a point on it, threats. If you back single-payer, we will spend whatever it takes to get you voted out of office.
The only way any sort of single-payer system will go through is if all the corporations and institutions in the US who are not in the insurance industry see a fiduciary interest in matching the insurance industry’s cash and PR onslaught dollar for dollar. I would love, love, love to see a grassroots push for sane healthcare, but the realist in me doesn’t think that’s going to happen. Health care costs are spiraling every year, and that affects any employer who has to cover some or all of their employee’s insurance, so the day when that uprising comes is probably pretty close.
What do you expect? Puddybutt is the lamest poster on this (or perhaps any) blog.
ArtFart @ 108:
Frankly, I don’t consider Pud that lame. He posts a lot, and there’s a lot of absolute dreck, but every now and then he posts something worth thinking about between all the noise.
I went to finishing school (for 3 hours) so I won’t name noms de keyboard but I find Pud’s style more refreshing than the absolutely kneejerk “LIEBERALS SUCK! HILLARY IS A BITCH AND MICHAEL MOORE IS FAT!” style done by some posters.
Let me follow up just a bit to my last post.
FOX News is the media arm of the Republican Party. There’s no way around that. That’s not necessarily a bad thing; in fact, I wish the Democrats were organized enough to have something similar. They could have the best news reporting in the world at 5 and 35 past the hour. It’s possible; I can’t say, because I don’t watch them. Part of this is because they are the media arm of the Republican Party, but only part. In truth I don’t watch that much TV news.
Whether they lean to the left or the right, a well-informed citizen needs to get news from a variety of sources. Every news source has a slant to it, even the most truly fair and impartial ones, so it’s important to have a variety of news sources so you can make up your mind for yourself. Did the protest in DC on Saturday draw tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of protesters? Did Democrats smash a minimum wage filibuster, or did Republicans extract key concessions? Sometimes the way a headline is phrased, what is left out of one version of a story that went into another, is as important as the points everyone agrees on.
This is why I like aggregators like Google News. You get multiple points of view, from both here and abroad. You find out about stories that you might otherwise have missed. (Did you hear that residents of Sydney, Australia are being told the city may become uninhabitable in the lifetime of its youngest residents due to global warming? I had to search for the story on the P-I web site, but it was top news in Britain this morning — and the P-I story didn’t mention anything about the city being uninhabitable, although it hit the high points about temperatures rising and drought 9 out of every 10 years. The bit about “uninhabitable” was from a story on the BBC.)
We can learn a lesson from some of the best debaters in Congress. Just for fun and practice, Hubert Humphrey would occasionally argue the conservative side of an issue, while one of his Republican friends and colleagues would argue the liberal side. It’s much easier to argue your case if you know what the other side is thinking and likely to say, if nothing else so you can refute it when necessary.
Have a good evening, all.
JSA: Thanks for the kudo.
Now let’s talk turkey. I will gladly accept the number over the 39.2 million, minue the illegals. This is what you can pin on GWB. If the 90’s boom was so big why were 39.2 million left dangling, Moonbat!s?
I’d like to meet over dinner and we can talk about architecting systems. I told people on ASSHeads what I did for a living, but few of you remember!
JSA: Most Libtards (you not included) can not FOR ONE COTTON PICKIN MINUTE LOOK AT FACTS without going into their dumb idiot modes.
JSA: First there is LeftStillDumb. A real person would never tell his enemy he screwed his wife and sister and daughters. Brains did not run rampant in his family.
Clueless\YLB: Was Johnny One Note, November 7th gave Johnny, Two Notes. The Caps lock is stupid. Oh… Plagiarist!
Rujax!: Nothing more to say. Worthless mass of human tissue!
ArtFart: Wouldn’t know facts if they stood beside him.
Yer Killin Me: Now and then BRILLIANCE.
People who use a righty’s name to denigrate: No humor, and it gets old fast.
Carl: We can debate if you’d stop swearing.
Voice of Chalk Scratching: No respect left for you!
Pelletizer: Too many posts and then you call everyone who disagrees with you a NAZI or FASCIST. You may have a clue on law stuff, but theree are some things you are dead wrong . When called on it you go schizo! Have you figured how to use IF as noun?
That’s enough for now. Back to Idol and a good laugh!
Headless: I didn’t forget you. You need to burn in hell!
JSA: What about the absolutely kneejerk “RIGHTY’S SUCK! RIGHTY’s are NAZIs AND Righty’s are Fascists!” style done by almost all libtard posters? Did you forget them?
112
Thank you. I think.
Roger, I’m not trying to defend the cost of the bridge. I’m appalled by it as much as you are. I just passed along your post to someone at the DOT who might be able to explain it. Me, I’m more concerned about the cost of replacing the East Span of the Hood Canal Bridge myself.
pud @ 113:
I’m responsible for my own postings. What anyone else writes is their problem. If I stood here and scolded everyone for their failings, I would be wagging my finger all day, and that’s boring.
It’s Goldy’s sandbox, and he lets who he wants shit in it. If I ran it, a few people would get their posting privileges curtailed until they said something worthwhile. This cuts both ways.
It would certainly be less active that way, and that might be too bad.
OK, Puddy, I apologize for being a a little flippant. I also give you kudos for recognizing that having tens of millions of people without healthcare coverage is a problem that should be of concern to all of us. Whichever particular estimate is correct is more or less irrelevant–it’s a hell of a lot of people.
From my and my wife’s perspective (hers being from a career in healthcare), the problem may have become worse in spite of, or perhaps in connection with, the “tech boom” of the late 90’s, but it really didn’t have anything to do with who was in the White House. A lot of the “created wealth” at that time was sort of mythical, propped up by a hysterical investment community flocking to a bunch of pseudo “companies”, many of whom really had no “product” other than their own stock. Most of these enterprises employed lots and lots of mostly young people, who didn’t pay much attention to the lack of health coverage and the prospect of maybe-sorta cashing in on the IPO in lieu of a retirement plan or even a 401K. Who gave a rat’s ass, so long as there was a foosball table, free Starbuck’s and massages, and a hot bar down around the corner? This made it more the norm in corporate America not to provide such “niceties”. Of course, after the crash, with labor being a buyer’s market, it just got even worse. Meanwhile, politicians of all stripes planned the constuction of monuments to themselves, having themselves bought into the hype that all Americans were somehow going to be millionaires.
I still cringe to remember the 2000 presidential debates, in which Bush and Gore debated about what they were going to do with the huge surpluses in tax revenue that they both evidently thought were going to go on forever.
Interesting commentary ArtFart. Too often your YouTube buddies, love to look at the result instead of the cause or where the problem occured. My problem with this is: when you look at the uninsured many young people choose no health care insurance but are counted in the big number. One needs to fully look at the demographics.
If children are in the number then we have to do something about that. If people choose no health care why? Unfortunately the debate becomes it’s GWB’s fault! And he whos voice sounds like chalk scratching doesn’t want debate. He wants to throw red meat to his Northwest Division of Lunatic Libtard Moonbats!