Joel Connelly mounts his high horse today and launches some invective at anyone and everyone who’s been pointing fingers at Chief Kerlikowske over police oversight issues. Josh Feit has already responded, easily swatting down Connelly’s lazy accusation that The Stranger has been hypocritical when it comes to dealing with the accuracy of police reports. But the real hypocrite here is Connelly, who actually writes the following two paragraphs in succession:
The loudmouths should allow Hizzoner’s panel to do its work. Our 1960s-era activists should recognize that “this due process thing” (as a media colleague calls it) applies to police chiefs, even to police officers.
Overseers of our law enforcement agencies ought to appreciate the requirement that complaints get acted upon quickly, or dismissed. Our cops have a pretty tense job, filled with judgment calls. It makes no sense to leave a line officer, working under pressure, hung up in the city’s preoccupation with “process.”
So we should recognize that due process applies to police officers, but when dealing with police officers, we shouldn’t be preoccupied with “process?” Huh?
I caught a lot of grief for my post last week calling for Kerlikowske to resign. Since then, another group, the Minority Executive Director’s Coalition (MEDC), has also called for the chief to be replaced. And James Kelly of the Urban League, who was originally defending Kerlikowske, now also agrees that the chief should be explaining himself in writing when he fails to act on the recommendations of the existing police oversight panel.
The evidence that there’s a problem with oversight at SPD has been pretty substantial since the beginning of this story and has been well documented by both The Seattle Times and The Stranger. So when Connelly invokes the idea of this just being about “1960’s-era activists”, that’s when I tune him out. As someone who was born after the end of the Vietnam War, I don’t carry any of that baggage. Instead, I’ve seen a different set of civil rights issues – the Rodney King trial, “Driving While Black”, record numbers of African-Americans being hauled off to our prisons, many of them for doing things that well-off white kids get away with every day. In my lifetime, I haven’t seen the racial divide in this country disappear as much as I’ve seen it ignored. Progressives proclaim that affirmative action is saving the black community but then bury their heads in the sand about why we have 6 times the percentage of African-Americans in jail than South Africa ever had of their native population under Apartheid. And some of the worst states in this trend are blue states like California, Illinois, and New York.
As I mentioned in last week’s post, according to a survey from 2000-2001, Seattle’s racial disparity in drug arrests is higher than any other city of comparable size in the United States. It shouldn’t be a surprise then that this case is focused on two cops (one with a long history of problems with the black community) who made a drug arrest this January of a black man in a wheelchair who claims that the cops planted drugs on him and later roughed him up while in custody. After video of the arrest surfaced showing some inaccuracies with the officer’s report (and not showing any clear evidence that drugs were taken from the suspect), the charges against the man were dismissed. This case, and the way that both the chief and the mayor have been quick to defend the police involved, have been at the heart of the calls for Kerlikowske to resign. There simply isn’t an excuse for the mayor and the chief to be so incurious as to what really happened to George Patterson that night.
Newark, NJ mayor Cory Booker, a Rhodes’ Scholar who came into office determined to fix the endless violence that has plagued that city, is now pointing his finger at the drug war and calling it an economic genocide against black communities. But here in Seattle, where the black community has less clout, the mayor and the chief happily continue the war. This case obviously goes well beyond just drug law enforcement, as The Stranger continues to find new instances of general police brutality against people of color here. But the guise of keeping drugs out of the black community is the mandate that problem officers like Greg Neubert have in order to treat every person in the black community as a suspect. It’s a recipe that begs for situations to escalate.
Connelly ends his column by making a comparison to the oversight of road repair and wondering why people who are angry at the Department of Transportation can’t stir up the kind of shitstorms that people who are angry at the police can. I’ll explain that to him in more detail the next time I see him at DL, but it helps to look at the very last paragraph:
Leaving rubber behind on Second Avenue, a fiendish thought flashed across my mind: “If only I were a street drug dealer, protesting a bust, I could raise hell in this town.”
He’s referring to Patterson, the man arrested in January. There’s only one problem. Patterson insists he’s not a dealer, and the charges were dropped. And basic common sense tells you that a man in a wheelchair isn’t a very effective person to have as a street dealer in a business where people steal from and shoot each other. But for Joel Connelly and much of Seattle’s “progressive” community, due process may not be for everyone. And sometimes, the relationship between Democrats and the black community can be eerily similar to the relationship between Republicans and the military.
I can’t wait to see how SJ
misconstruesinterprets this post.This exchange between me and Proud Leftist is so good, I am going to post it in every thread on HA from now on. It destroys the Publicans’ stupid talking points – period.
“I’m working really hard to understand how President Bill Clinton’s actions act as justifcation for the righties. Read this fuckwads.
If your lame ass argument is that Bill Clinton was a bad President – which is what you say – and if your argument now is that the AWOL coward GW Bush is in someway comparable to Bill Clinton, what you are actually saying is that GW Bush is NO BETTER THAN CLINTON.
Does it hurt to be that stupid? I really want to know.
proud leftist says:
RES @ 18
You’ve hit it on the nose. The rightwing fringefucks consider Clinton to be the personification of evil–indeed, he is the devil incarnate in their twisted little minds. Nonetheless, their justification for all of the Bushites’ sins is, always, “well, Clinton did it, too.” Methinks they never studied logic.”
Leave Me alone. I don’t understand why you hate me so much. I am a very nice guy and I like puppies too. Perhaps you should understand something though. I was REALLY drunk when I wrote that piece.
Peace out
Joel
N in Seattle
There is nothing to construe or misconstrue. Like Joel Connely, I feel that this is a legitimate issue and it should be resolved by something other than muckraking.
The danger with Lee’s approach is almost worse if there is fire behind the smoke, that is if the Chief is a bad guy. If the Stranger approaches the issue in a biased, hysterical fashion then no one will believe them and not only will the chief get off, the Stranger will not be able todo anything on any other issue either.
FWIW, there is a history of this sort of thing just as there is of police abuse. The NACCP has taken one sided stands that were unfair, one bad result of that has been the racist imbalance in the Seattle public Schools. If Lee wants to debnate that topic I ma happy to do so.
Police chiefs aren’t entitled to due process. They serve at the mayor’s pleasure, and take the fall when things go sideways in the police department. A city has a right to fire its police chief for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all! Police chiefs, like sports coaches, have no job security but they get compensated for it with a bigger paycheck than most folks earn.
Like Joel Connely, I feel that this is a legitimate issue and it should be resolved by something other than muckraking.
That pretty much sums it all up, doesn’t it? The definition of muckracking is:
Searching out or writing about dishonest acts of public officials or business people.
So, I guess in order to make Joel and SJ happy, we have to investigate what the police are doing, but only if we completely ignore their dishonest acts.
@ 3:
Stupid and nasty. Why don’t you write for yourself? Anonymity is understandable and acceptable; impersonation is juvenile and reprehensible.
SeattleJew @ 4:
FWIW, there is a history of this sort of thing just as there is of police abuse. The NACCP has taken one sided stands that were unfair, one bad result of that has been the racist imbalance in the Seattle public Schools.
I’m wondering if you could explain your line of argument in a bit more detail here.
Seattle is really heavily segregated. I don’t know why, and frankly don’t care too much. Some neighborhoods are lily-white. Some aren’t. The imbalance in the schools can be traced pretty closely with the imbalance in the neighborhoods. Busing was/is a half-assed solution to a fairly intractable problem.
Are you blaming the NAACP for Seattle being segregated, or am I missing something here?
@3 Well Joel, if what you published in the newspaper is no longer operative, maybe you should announce that in the newspaper instead of here … :)
Public Announcement: Roger Rabbit Will Be On Vacation
My volunteer work as a vegetable taster requires me to travel this time of year. YUMMY!!! The fact I will be absent from HA for the rest of this month doesn’t mean I’m dead! You trollfucks aren’t gonna be that lucky (unless I get shot or run over by a farm truck). Screw you! I’ll be back in a few weeks to resume meting out your just desserts to you unpatriotic America-hating fascist pigfuckers! Until then, go fuck yourselves and kiss your armadillo.
@9 Of course, if you’re not Joel but a trollfuck imposter instead, then my comment @9 is inoperative — and someone should render YOU inoperative.*
* Just kidding. I’m merely satirizing Ann Coulter’s humor.
Lee ,,,
you need to find a better dictionary …
OED
1. derogatory. A miser. Cf. MUCKWORM n….We see the world is full of such pinch-pennies, that wil let nothing goe, except it bee wrung from them perforce, as a key out of Hercules hande. These gripple muck-rakers, had as leeue part with their bloud, as their goods.
2. A person who or thing which seeks out and publicizes evidence of corruption and scandal, esp. among powerful or well-known people or institutions; a prurient inquirer into private morals. Also (rare): a pornographer.
Encycl Brit
The name muckraker was pejorative when used by President Theodore Roosevelt in his speech of April 14, 1906; he borrowed a passage from John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress, which referred to “the Man with the Muckrake . . . who could look no way but downward.”
The muckrakers’ work grew out of the yellow journalism of the 1890s, which whetted the public appetite for news arrestingly presented, and out of popular magazines, especially those established by S.S. McClure, Frank A. Munsey, and Peter F. Collier.
=========================
The term is “good” when you agree with the muckrakers goals and “bad” when you see it as mere sensationalism. The Ann Coulters et al, are as much muckrakers as Woodward and Bernstein. They, however, have a reputation of doing what they do for good reasons rather than to cell stuff.
I doubt you would find many modern journalists who consider this a word of praise.
Ever since I heard of Ida Tarbell’s History of the Standard Oil Company in high school I have exclusive associated the term “muckraker” with journalistic crusading to expose things that the rich and powerful would rather be kept undercover, bringing the names of people like Upton Sinclair to mind.
So, I decided to check out what Wikipedia has to say. The first paragraph in its entry on muckraking says:
So maybe the reason I hadn’t heard it in its scandal-mongering sense was because it isn’t used much that way on this side of the pond. Or perhaps I’m just out of the loop (happens a lot).
Anyway I’ve generally considered muckraking to be a good thing, although as you say it could depend on whether you’re the investigator or the investigated.
Under the definition above, though, I don’t see how Ann Coulter could possibly be called a muckraker, unless you subscribe wholeheartedly to the British definition. She’s just there to stir the pot, not to look under the rocks to see what crawls out of the muck.
Aporopos of not much, did you know that History of the Standard Oil Company is available online? I will have to check it out one of these days.
@8 jsa
Hard to do this in a brief space. I may write something longer at my blog.
Seattle once had a great school system.
The biggest change has been the advent of a very powerful, largely African American block and white liberal supporters devoted to the idea that any difference in achievement is the fault of the schools and esp. the fault of intrinsic racism. Teachers who have raised issues of problmes with AA culture are reprimanded.
As a partial result, the AA community .. although a small part of Seattle .. has a huge impact of the schools. In part this is because parents of other ethnic groups are driven out of the SPS. The result is an over-representation of AA kids in the SPS.
The focus on the underachievers amongst AA kids (while quite real) often happens to the neglect of other issues and has led to Seattle’s having a terribly low percentage of middle class kids of any race who stay in the SPS for K-12.
Yhere is a wide spread and incorrect perception that the SPS are not good. I can not say what is true today (though I am told things have not changed)but years ago I did a study of economically normed kids in AP classes at Garfield Lakeside. GHS walloped Lakeside and was easily the number one school for a college bound middle class kid in Washington State. Nor was GHS alone, a number of other Seattle High Schools, viewed in this way, were and may still be spectacular.
Why is the perception different? Because in the weird perspective of SPS, such successes do not mean anything because they do not involve all kids. Seattle may be the only District in Washington NOT to celebrate its annual crop of Merit finalists.
Even this might not be so bad except many of the leaders … the stakeholders from the AA community … literally do not believe that AA kids (unless they are their own) can compete. As a result there is a disastrous effort to make all Seattle schools equal rather than to support the achievements of the best schools while pulling the others up. Seattle also has a terrible history of creating “Zebra Schools,” schools where an artifactual bussing pattern mixes highly successful kids from across the city with local kids who have few choices. Can you imagine requiring a common reading class for ethnically divers fifth graders selected for high achievement and local kids who have been screwed by the system for years? Then, when the class breaks down, who do you suppose gets the blame?
I certainly do not mean to place all of this blame on the NACCP, but it has played a very public role in recent years. In contrast, many of the AA parents I met as an activist, were MORE driven to success for their kids than other groups of parents. Unfortunately, these parents are not sufficiently involved in AA community efforts to be effective and often end up sending their kids to private, often Catholic schools.
Any job that requires the kind of extensive ongoing training and highly developed judgments that are required of police must be subject to a process of critical review.
The problem is that the Seattle Police Guild continues to try to thwart any legitimate attempts at such a process. Professional police organizations should welcome critical oversight as one of the best ways of improving performance. But the guild just sees oversight as “witch hunts”.
And what do they get for their trouble?
Witch hunts.
New Trend In Customer Service: Fire Customers Who Use It
http://www.switched.com/2007/0.....0000000001
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Another market failure! More proof that rightwing fuckwards who think the free market is the solution to everything don’t know what they’re talkinga bout. It reminds me of the old Ma Bell motto, “We don’t care. We don’t have to.”
Here’s another miserable example of how the profit motive screws things up: Prisons run by private companies make medieval dungeons look like country clubs.
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/s.....0209990012
Hey! I’m not against free enterprise or making a profit. There’s a place for that. It’s simply not the answer to everything that Ayn Rayn worshippers think it is, that’s all. There are things government does better than private enterprise.
For example, I’m 100% in favor of Roger Rabbit getting rich from stupid humans who drive gas guzzlers! I bought my National Oilwell Varco (NOV) two years ago for $44. It closed today above $110. Free money!!! Sure beats working for Republican asswipes who think the minimum wage should be $2.13 an hour.
The self-absorption and haughty superiority of Lee’s post conceals a strong need for self-improvement.
We had a corrupt police department in this city when I moved here for grad school. A “Tolerance Policy”, with organized graft and a payoff policy, ruled the county courthouse and the public safety building.
Even when the Tolerance Policy ended, the first persons purged were those in the police department (e.g. Eugene Corr) who had blown the whistle on the bribe taking.
The SPD today is a far better organized, more educated, more community-conscious outfit than the police department of almost any other city in America. Of course, there are excesses, and there is an oversight process in place to deal with them.
Chiefs do commit errors. Nobody, in any profession, is perfect. Jouralists find their way back to respectability after plagiarism raps. Bloggers must live with awful predictions (e.g. the Shark on Wenatchee trial). Vice presidents must hear old predictions that we would be greeted as liberators.
All told, Chief K has run a pretty fine force, with little constructive help from his political overseers. Lee’s call(and others’) for the chief’s resignation reminds me of long ago purges in Stalinist-run countries of Eastern Europe: Determine guilt without hearing from the accused, then decide on the crime, and then hold a show trial at which the accused confesses.
Another quick point: Is there no quality control at HorsesAss.org? Earlier in this post, an imposter perported to speak in my name.
The internet is a prized vehicle for allowing citizens to again speak to their government, and — yes — talk back to a person in my position. It can also the instrument of people lacking all personal ethics and decency.
Such was the case with this alleged human being.
“joel”
May I suggest that you clarify your identity? There are a lot of synonymous folks here!
That said, I am glad to see the comments here. The danger in muckraking is that no one believes you if you turn out to be wrong and you will turn out to be wrong if your main function is notoriety.
The sad example of Fox News is all too painful. Are Hannity and O’Reilly credible anywhere outside of the nutwingery? How would anyone other than a nut feel about Limbaugh as Secretary of State? Muckraking from the left is, thankfully, less common these days.
So why DO we have HA? To help Goldy’s career? Sell adverts on HA? Either of these ends may be well served by throwing around charges, calling names, and the other amusements of much of talk radio. Or we can choose to have a place where important progressive ideas can be discussed? I like all three reasons.
Lee’s call(and others’) for the chief’s resignation reminds me of long ago purges in Stalinist-run countries of Eastern Europe: Determine guilt without hearing from the accused, then decide on the crime, and then hold a show trial at which the accused confesses.
Kind of like how George Patterson became a drug dealer in your mind?
Calling for the chief’s resignation is a way to signify to him that his evasiveness on oversight matters is not acceptable. If he publicly explains his actions, I could be convinced that he’s fit for his role as chief. Until then, I’m very inclined to believe that we have some of the same problems that other cities have when it comes to the way police deal with the black community. As someone who follows these issues closer than just about anyone else around here, I don’t really care that you see a “haughty superiority” in my post. I care that race relations in this country are a mess, and that many “progressives” are completely oblivious to the real reasons why that is.
@12
The term is “good” when you agree with the muckrakers goals and “bad” when you see it as mere sensationalism. The Ann Coulters et al, are as much muckrakers as Woodward and Bernstein. They, however, have a reputation of doing what they do for good reasons rather than to cell stuff.
I doubt you would find many modern journalists who consider this a word of praise.
@22
Muckraking from the left is, thankfully, less common these days.
Really? I guess that’s kind of surprising to me since arguably the most successful entities in the left blogosphere is Josh Marshall’s TPM Muckraker. In fact, they are the website that broke the US Attorney’s scandal when the traditional media couldn’t put the pieces together on their own. I’m not sure how you can argue that muckraking is either bad or uncommon in this day and age. But then again, I have no idea what makes you say any of the crazy crap you say.
Looks like 960 is gonna easily qualify with 313k signatures.
Now all you fucking loser freeloading bastards are gonna hafta shop around for an activist judge and do a jihad to thwart the will of The People.
Fuck you assholes….
Hey Mark
Have you paid $3.13 of your bet yet? Maybe you could work a couple of hours of OT and pay $9.60.
Fucking deadbeat.
When will that baby-raping punk MTR pay his bet?
Good lesbians gone bad!
Whoo-boy! Billy O’ is really of his head on this one.
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2.....mamas.html
A bank robber shoots up a bank, injures some people and threatens others. Someone sees the face of the bank robber and recognizes him. He also lies to the police, preventing them from catching the robber. Same crime? Technically, yes. Should the punishment be the same? Well, according to you wingnuts, the answer is also “yes”.
Ah, yeah. You just missing one minor detail in your scenario. The bank robber and the police are the same person. Plame and Wilson set this whole thing up. Nice try, try again. heehehehehehe
If your lame ass argument is that Bill Clinton was a bad President – which is what you say – and if your argument now is that the AWOL coward GW Bush is in someway comparable to Bill Clinton, what you are actually saying is that GW Bush is NO BETTER THAN CLINTON.
Does it hurt to be that stupid? I really want to know.
proud leftist says:
RES @ 18
You’ve hit it on the nose. The rightwing fringefucks consider Clinton to be the personification of evil–indeed, he is the devil incarnate in their twisted little minds. Nonetheless, their justification for all of the Bushites’ sins is, always, “well, Clinton did it, too.” Methinks they never studied logic.”
Yeah. It is to bad that your “liberal logic” fizzles out after two questions. Liberal can’t stand debate, that is why they are for the “fairness doctrine”. woof woof.
GEE ID LIKE TO THANK BILL CLINTON FOR SHOWING US THAT SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN THE WORK PLACE ESPECIALLY THE WHITE HOUSE AND ON THE JOB IS OK.AND ALL YOU HAVE TO KNOW IS WHAT THE MEANING OF IT IS.IT REALLY IS GREAT TO KNOW THAT CERTAIN SEXUAL ACTS ARE NOT SEX.AND ONE PERSON MAY HAVE SEX WHILE THE OTHER ONE DOES NOT HAVE SEX
We are now accepting donations from those of you who are dumb….. I mean, want to donate toward Albert III’s speeding ticket. Cash donations only.
(You don’t actually think we would accept a check from you losers)
OH AND ONE MORE THING WHILE ALL YOU ASSHOLES ON THE LEFT LIKE TO BITCH ABOUT BUSH ID LIKE TO ONCE AGAIN THANK BILL CLINTON FOR THE 73 HOUSE ANDSENATE WITNESSES WHO HAVE PLED THE 5TH AMENDMENT AND 17 WITNESSES WHO HAVE FLED THE COUNTRYTO AVOID TESTIFYING ABOUT DEMOCRATIC CAMPAIGN FUND RAISING
17
Why do you care about criminal so much….. Oh, that’s right, they vote democrat. Nevermind.
@28-33
(yawn)
Are “conservatives” obligated to be both illiterate and incapable of forming an intellectual argument? C’mon you guys, tell us just one single thing that the Bush administration has done that benefits the average American, and back it up with some factual evidence.
Roger Rabbit says:
For example, I’m 100% in favor of Roger Rabbit getting rich from stupid humans who drive gas guzzlers! I bought my National Oilwell Varco (NOV) two years ago for $44. It closed today above $110. Free money!!! Sure beats working for Republican asswipes who think the minimum wage should be $2.13 an hour.
Hey, I would take $2.13 an hour. I must be in the wrong party.
Duhhhh. Tax cuts? Gawd these free loading dems are hilarious. hehehehehe
BILL THANK YOU FOR 19 CHARGES. 8 CONVICTIONS AND 4 WHO WENT TO PRISION,FROM THE WITEWATER MESS AND THE 55 CRIMINAL CHARGES AND 32 CONVICTIONS SO FAR IN OTHER CLINTON SCANDALS
ROGER RABBIT IS SO FULL OF SHIT HIS EYES ARE BROWN.BE A NICE BUNNY AND GO PLAY IN THE TRAFFIC
Tax cuts not only benefits the bottom 50% of wage earner by increasing their disposable income, but also increases job opportunities available to the working class. Tax cuts also boots wage overall. That is why tax cuts should be celebrated by the working poor more than the rich. The increase in the deficit is moot since they contribute less than 4% of all federal income taxes.
Man, I just read what I penned earlier. I can’t believe that load of bullocks came out of my brain! Listen folks, I don’t like “Citizen Journalists”, blogs, or these tubes of interwebs. Blogs makes my job less important and makes me less virile. People can be mean to me and I have to take it. But even I have to say that my earlier post excroriating criticism of the cheif copper was a brilliant and shining piece of salmon dookie. However, it was immensly readable, despite the enormous quantity of booze I consumed at lunch.
Man, I got some serious vodka shits tonight.
Joel
SeattleJew @ 14:
Thanks.
I will drop by your blog if you choose to write on this. My weekends are usually busy, and I’m not near the computer.
Tax cuts! Oh, I LOVE tax cuts! They put millions more in my pocket. Who cares if the country is borrowing money from the Chinese to finance that little dustup in Iraq? And little people . . . pshaw, the little people will work for whatever I decide to pay them. If they don’t like their purchasing power going down faster than the tax cuts can keep up, it’s not my fault. They can always work somewhere else, right? Sure they can! Them, and their kids, and their kids, and their kids . . .
@ 41
jsa
Tx .. I have not written about the exact topic yet but there are relevant posts:
Why Seattle needs a central city high school. SLuville
The defective school board Cheryl Chow
What is hilarious is that donks actually believe poor people pay taxes. Donks have never been good at math. The suck at history and science too.
“the relationship between Democrats and the black community can be eerily similar to the relationship between Republicans and the military.”
What?
There is no requirement of due process in how we form our political opinions. The very idea is ridiculous.
The Chief of Police is not entitled to three years of trials and appeals before we decide we have had enough.
To compare forming a political opinion as to the police chief, based on available evidence to date, to a show trial conducted by Stalin leading to execution is bull shit, Joel Connelly.
Much of what you say is just labelling people rather than actually going over the facts and evidence that is available in a reasoned way. Your continued approach of calling people 1960s agitators, commies, Stalinists, etc. is shameless cowardice. Why do you not respond to the facts and evidence cited by Josh or others who have called for resignation?
And btw, no one contended nor should have to prove that MOST cops are not ok…the test is in how he deals with the ones who ARE NOT ok. You are like GWB attacking liberals for “not supporting the troops”….also shameless.
@45
What?
Bill, that statement was meant for people who understand politics, not people who just like calling people names. If you make an effort to understand it, I’d be happy to debate it with you. If you haven’t figured it out yet, it was a criticism of Democrats.
“Bill, that statement was meant for people who understand politics, not people who just like calling people names.”
Oh for god’s sake! Where Lee, did I call anyone a name? Jeez, the entire Horeseass blog is often reduced to a nasty name calling fest.
I’m just trying to understand your comparison of the way Democrats view the black community and the way Republicans view the military. If you can explain your comments without the condescending snottiness it would be wonderfully refreshing.
@48
Well, I thought the meaning of the statement was obvious, but I’ll indulge you.
My main point is that Democrats often take their support from the African-American community for granted – while implementing policies that are terrible for the African-American community. This is similar to how Republicans have taken their support from the military community for granted – and implemented policies that have been terrible for members of the military.
@48
And Bill, I could care less about hurting your feelings considering how you acted in the last comment thread, by initially calling every one “crybabies” for being upset about how Libby got away with obstructing justice in the Plame outing. You can kiss my ass.
“the relationship between Democrats and the black community can be eerily similar to the relationship between Republicans and the military.”
I’m not sure whether that’s a bigger affront to African-Americans, or to members of the military.
Democrats implement policies that are terrible for the African American community in the same way Republican policies have been terrible for the military?
Boy, you really are self-absorbed and haughty. What a crock of shit.
Lee, I don’t disagree with you a bit when you say that Democrats have implemented policies that have had a terrible effect on the African American community. I’m not sure what Republican policies towards the Military community you’re referring to, but I definitely think that veterans are not being cared for as well as they ought to be. So we aren’t really in disagreement. Thanks for the clarification.
By the way, I was teasing when I called you guys crybabies. I just wanted to watch you all blow your stacks. The left has won every round in the boxing match that is politics lately and they lose one very insignificant round and totally flip out. Lefties take themselves so seriously that it’s easy egg them on. Did you not get it? And entirely priceless was that absolute inability of anyone to admit that Rove and Cheney were the real targets. One of the most telling characteristics of the left is their unwillingness to ever admit they are wrong. Says quite a bit about their maturity level, don’t you think? If any of you can cite me one instance in the past 10 years when a leftist or a Democrat has apologised for a position, or a statement why, I’ll…ahem, apologise!
And thanks for showing your true liberal colors with your “kiss my ass” comment. Any comment that upsets the liberal applecart results in grade school playground invective, delivered I imagine from the safety of a keyboard at some trendy coffee house. At least back in grade school a guy who told you to “kiss my ass” had the guts to risk a broken nose.
@46
James
Of course you are correct, Due process in the legal sense is not how we deal with public figures. OTOH, between swift boating, Mccarthy, Willy Horton, the health care massacre … it would seem to me that our side should bve able to learn that judgement by cacophony or one sided yellow journalism are dangerous tools.
I, for one, found the Stranger’s articles very unimpressive. This does not make Josh Feit wrong. But this sort of unbalanced analysis always makes me feel I am being swiftboated.
This is esp. true when Euro folk take on issues in the AA community. The condescension may have made sense once upon a time, but there are plenty of powerful AA leaders who can speak for that community. From what O have seen ion the Seattle papers and talking with AA friends, there is no community support for Mr. Bishop. If anything the recent article on the topic in the Seattle Medium was fairly positive toward the Seattle police.
One thing as an aside, for the most part the discussants in these threads are racially anonymous. Is that a good thing?
John Edwards apologized for his vote in favor of Presidential authority to invade Iraq.
There you go, Bill Cruchon. Your turn.
@52
Democrats implement policies that are terrible for the African American community in the same way Republican policies have been terrible for the military?
Boy, you really are self-absorbed and haughty. What a crock of shit.
Are you going to argue it or not? Democrats have long supported the drug laws that have ended up with record numbers of innocent African-Americans behind bars.
@53
Lee, I don’t disagree with you a bit when you say that Democrats have implemented policies that have had a terrible effect on the African American community. I’m not sure what Republican policies towards the Military community you’re referring to, but I definitely think that veterans are not being cared for as well as they ought to be.
The list is long. Veteran care is a big part of it, from Walter Reed to the lack of funding for taking care of PTSD and keeping promises on deployment lengths. Iraq, in itself, was terrible for the military, sending troops to fight and die for a poorly planned out war of choice, rather than a war that was necessary. And the way we’re practically losing Afghanistan with our own stubbornness isn’t helping either.
By the way, I was teasing when I called you guys crybabies. I just wanted to watch you all blow your stacks.
Well, if you want to be treated like an adult around here, act like one. We tend to be touchy when fellow Americans criticism us for our patriotism.
The left has won every round in the boxing match that is politics lately and they lose one very insignificant round and totally flip out.
The reason that people are upset about Libby has nothing to do with politics. It has to do with patriotism. Scooter Libby lied to cover up what this administration did to reveal the identity of a CIA agent who was working on non-proliferation. The Bush Administration put politics before national security. The people who are upset about Libby are not “liberals”, they’re patriots.
Did you not get it? And entirely priceless was that absolute inability of anyone to admit that Rove and Cheney were the real targets.
Rove and Cheney were the real targets, and the reason Fitzgerald wasn’t able to prosecute them was because Libby illegally obstructed his investigation. That’s why it’s a big deal when the Bush Administration excuses that behavior.
One of the most telling characteristics of the left is their unwillingness to ever admit they are wrong.
Really? You think that’s been the running theme of the Libby case? Man, you are clueless beyond belief. How many times did people on the right continue to insist that Valerie Plame wasn’t covert? How many times did people on the right insist that Joe Wilson lied in his report to Congress. How many times did people on the right continue to state that Valerie Plame sent Joe Wilson to Niger? You might want to take another look at which side has had severe difficulty in admitting that they’ve been wrong.
Says quite a bit about their maturity level, don’t you think?
Exactly.
If any of you can cite me one instance in the past 10 years when a leftist or a Democrat has apologised for a position, or a statement why, I’ll…ahem, apologise!
In the area that I follow, the drug war, several people on the left who were responsible for the atrocious crack/cocaine disparity have since apologized and are working to fix it. Granted, some people on the right have apologized for it as well.
And thanks for showing your true liberal colors with your “kiss my ass” comment. Any comment that upsets the liberal applecart results in grade school playground invective, delivered I imagine from the safety of a keyboard at some trendy coffee house.
As I said, act like an adult around here and we’ll treat you like one.
At least back in grade school a guy who told you to “kiss my ass” had the guts to risk a broken nose.
Well, that goes for people who come into the comment thread calling everyone crybabies too, doesn’t it? Hypocrite much?
#55, Yes Edwards did apologize his support of the original Iraq war bill. I do indeed apologize.
Lee at #57, what evidence do you have that Valerie Plame was working on “non-proliferation”?
And it’s got to be the number one nomination for the Irony Hall of Fame when you leftists here chastise commentors such as myself that you don’t happen to agree with for not “acting like an adult”. I guess I need to read more of the well reasoned, mature commentary here on Horesesass.
And don’t you think, Lee, that there is quite a disparity between chiding folks for being “crybabies”, and telling someone to “kiss my ass”? Your comments lead me to believe that you can’t discern the difference.
@56:
Drug policies that disproportionately effect blacks (AA, whatever) are “Democratic policies”? What the hell are you thinking?
Sure a majority of Democrats may support such (poorly thought out and largely failed) drug policies, but so do Republicans. That is not a differentiating policy. (And in truth, such policies probably enjoy more support amongst the Republicans.)
The reality is that most political constituencies support these policies (even if they are wrong), particularly in communities that have seen the effects of criminal drug activities. If you want to get elected (which is part of representing), you probably have to support some of these policies that I think you and I both oppose.
I really have little patience with the notion that Democrats are equivalent to Republicans in any respect, even in taking a constituency for granted. Some Democrats may make some of the same mistakes that Republicans make, but most often for very different reasons.
Sorry you haven’t learned much pragmatism (yet). Try to remember that to exercise political power, the first thing you have to do is to work to form a majority. Sometimes that means compromise, and sometimes in means not being “right”, or trying to, all the fucking time.
Calling for Kerlikowske’s head at this point (or, if you prefer, for him to fall on his sword) isn’t pragmatic at all, it’s shrill.
Lee at #57, what evidence do you have that Valerie Plame was working on “non-proliferation”?
You can look at the Answers.com page for Valerie Plame. If you think Answers.com is part of the vast left wing conspiracy, I can’t help you.
And it’s got to be the number one nomination for the Irony Hall of Fame when you leftists here chastise commentors such as myself that you don’t happen to agree with for not “acting like an adult”. I guess I need to read more of the well reasoned, mature commentary here on Horesesass.
You’re having a discussion with me. I DO provide well reasoned, mature commentary at this website. You show up in comment threads calling people crybabies. One of us is an adult, the other is not. I obviously know you’re capable of having an adult conversation, but you choose not to because I will clean your clock if you ever tried.
And don’t you think, Lee, that there is quite a disparity between chiding folks for being “crybabies”, and telling someone to “kiss my ass”? Your comments lead me to believe that you can’t discern the difference.
Yes, there is a difference. You called a group of people crybabies, yet my “kiss my ass” was directed at a single individual – you. When I start making generalizations about large groups of people, then we’re talking apples and apples.
Aaron @61
Drug policies that disproportionately effect blacks (AA, whatever) are “Democratic policies”? What the hell are you thinking?
Many of the places where the racial disparity is highest in drug arrests are in blue states or blue cities. I’ve already mentioned that Seattle has the highest disparity in drug arrests among similarly sized cities. San Francisco is right behind it. California has a massive problem with prison overcrowding due to drug policies. Obviously, Republicans support these policies too, but nearly all Democrats have been just as enthusiastic in waging the drug war. I’m not arguing that it’s a differentiating policy, I’m arguing that the Democrats take the support of the African-American community for granted despite the fact that they strongly support the major issue harming that community.
The reality is that most political constituencies support these policies (even if they are wrong), particularly in communities that have seen the effects of criminal drug activities. If you want to get elected (which is part of representing), you probably have to support some of these policies that I think you and I both oppose.
I agree. That doesn’t mean my original comparison is wrong. Republicans today have to continue to support the Iraq War in order to win nominations even though it’s destroying the military.
I really have little patience with the notion that Democrats are equivalent to Republicans in any respect, even in taking a constituency for granted. Some Democrats may make some of the same mistakes that Republicans make, but most often for very different reasons.
I guess I have little patience with the idea of making excuses for mistakes. If Democrats and Republicans are both making mistakes, it doesn’t matter which side has the better reason.
Sorry you haven’t learned much pragmatism (yet).
I care more about getting drug policy right than I care about Democrats winning. Part of that is because I still don’t trust the more authoritarian wing of the Democratic party. If a libertarian Republican were to win the nomination for governor next year, it’s very likely they’ll be getting my vote over Gregoire. She’s shown absolutely zero courage on this issue.
Try to remember that to exercise political power, the first thing you have to do is to work to form a majority. Sometimes that means compromise, and sometimes in means not being “right”, or trying to, all the fucking time.
We HAVE a majority here. A massive one. Why is there no movement on this issue? We have a 2:1 advantage in both sides of the legislature and a Democratic governor, yet we couldn’t even get a halfway decent medical marijuana bill passed. What the hell good is it to have a Democratic majority? They’re useless.
Calling for Kerlikowske’s head at this point (or, if you prefer, for him to fall on his sword) isn’t pragmatic at all, it’s shrill.
The NAACP and the MEDC are both calling for him to resign. Is the black community in this city shrill?
The attitude you have there is no different than a Republican’s when he hears a group of Iraq War vets demanding an end to the Iraq War and dismisses them as being non-pragmatic and shrill. That’s the whole point I’m making.
You’d vote for a libertarian Republican over Gregiore? JFC. Figures.
(Libertarians would have us three finger salute government and throw out decades of hard fought social policies. Sure, perfection hasn’t been achieved, but the notion of wholesale tear down is radical, experimental, and purely theoretical. Easy for the typical self satisfied types I’ve encountered who self identify as libertarian, but not so good for the folks that actual need such programs.)
Blacks are not particularly well represented in the political process, but that isn’t solely a result of white politicians ignoring their issues. What constituency is disproportionately represented in our political process? Old folks. Why? Because they reliably turn out in large disproportionate numbers. See a pattern?
Gil Kerlikowske, and indeed anyone who has worked visibly in a position like he has, deserves at least a small benefit of a doubt, and not the nasty self promoting kind of bullshit that a leaked report (prepared by exactly who?) represents.
If, outside of the media frenzy, it turns out that a sober and objective evaluation validates most or all of the accusations that have been shouted from the rooftops, then Kerlikowske should be fired, not prompted to leave on his own accord, career intact for some other city. But that will take patience and time that it seems a vocal subset of local writers (The Stranger mostly, and you as well apparently) can’t be bothered with.
Really, if being more effective in purging truly “bad cops” is the goal, then is getting the chief to leave for ephemeral evidence, that no one seems to agree on, really the most effective way to improve department discipline? Why would a new chief make any difference? BTW, you do realize there is a shortage of qualified applicants to become cops now, don’t you? That’s not to say that bad ones should be tolerated, but you damn well better be sure of what is going on before you start canning even less-than-perfect cops that have made errors.
You probably haven’t lived here that long (decades), so you don’t remember years when the SPD was truly full of out of control unprofessional cops. Things have improved a lot since then, much of it well before Kerlikowske, but some things since as well. Don’t be in such a fucking hurry to accept the first alarmist characterization you hear.
(Libertarians would have us three finger salute government and throw out decades of hard fought social policies. Sure, perfection hasn’t been achieved, but the notion of wholesale tear down is radical, experimental, and purely theoretical. Easy for the typical self satisfied types I’ve encountered who self identify as libertarian, but not so good for the folks that actual need such programs.)
When it comes to Washington State, with a strongly Democratic legislature, I seriously doubt that any governor would have the political capital to just tear down all those government programs at once. But they would be in a better position to align business interests against the prison lobby. The bottom line is that your defense of the Democratic establishment is useless considering what’s been happening in this state recently.
Blacks are not particularly well represented in the political process, but that isn’t solely a result of white politicians ignoring their issues. What constituency is disproportionately represented in our political process? Old folks. Why? Because they reliably turn out in large disproportionate numbers. See a pattern?
Yes, and that’s because in this state, felons can’t vote. As a result, the large numbers of African-Americans that we’ve been funneling into prison are now disenfranchised and have no say in the political process. And exactly which Democrats in this state have spoken out about this problem vs. the Democrats in this state who are defending a police chief who seems disinterested in why his cops have been caught lying about arresting black people in a number of instances?
Gil Kerlikowske, and indeed anyone who has worked visibly in a position like he has, deserves at least a small benefit of a doubt, and not the nasty self promoting kind of bullshit that a leaked report (prepared by exactly who?) represents.
Who cares who prepared the report as long as it has accurate information? The report details a number of problems with police oversight in SPD. If you think the report is wrong or inaccurate, prove it. Otherwise, I prefer to deal with the content of the report, rather than how it became public.
If, outside of the media frenzy, it turns out that a sober and objective evaluation validates most or all of the accusations that have been shouted from the rooftops, then Kerlikowske should be fired, not prompted to leave on his own accord, career intact for some other city. But that will take patience and time that it seems a vocal subset of local writers (The Stranger mostly, and you as well apparently) can’t be bothered with.
What exactly hasn’t been sober and objective about the accusations we’re already aware of? We have an arrest in January of a man in a wheelchair who claims that officers planted drugs on him and then later beat him up. Video of the arrest showed that the police officer’s report was completely inaccurate and that no drugs could be seen being removed from the suspect. The video also shows an officer putting the man in a 4-minute long choke hold.
A second incident in Capital Hill, where a black man was beaten mercilessly by an officer also doesn’t jive with the police report, and the audio for that incident is particularly damaging to the officers’ credibility.
In both of those cases, and several others noted by the recent report from the OPA, Chief Kerlikowske did nothing to deal with it. As I’ve said before, if the chief can come forward and explain why, I’ll listen. But you’re out in left field if you think there hasn’t been a sober and objective evaluation of the chief’s lack of oversight on these matters.
Really, if being more effective in purging truly “bad cops” is the goal, then is getting the chief to leave for ephemeral evidence, that no one seems to agree on, really the most effective way to improve department discipline?
No, the most effective way is to call for the chief to resign so that he starts taking his oversight role seriously and purges the bad cops.
Why would a new chief make any difference?
Because he would know that the last chief lost his job for not taking the oversight process seriously.
BTW, you do realize there is a shortage of qualified applicants to become cops now, don’t you?
Yes, I keep hearing that. But I have trouble squaring away that information with some of the things that police officers in this “under-patrolled” city choose to do. Police officers in this city write jaywalking tickets! Hell, the Seattle Times (or maybe the PI) wrote an article recently about how SPD set up a sting to catch people who don’t use crosswalks properly. There was another undercover operation at Rick’s because (the horror!) people were getting handjobs! Does that sound like something an undermanned police force would be doing?
Law enforcement in this state has a very powerful lobby. That’s why we continually hear that there aren’t enough cops, yet when we look at what cops are actually doing, they’re standing outside Capital Hill bars trying to pick fights (according to the bouncer, that’s what Officer Sackman was doing right before the Alley-Barnes incident) or enforcing bullshit nanny state regulations that you and I both know are a waste of time.
That’s not to say that bad ones should be tolerated, but you damn well better be sure of what is going on before you start canning even less-than-perfect cops that have made errors.
The one cop involved in the Patterson arrest has a long list of problems going back to the 90s. He’s been caught lying on a number of occasions and is well-known in the black community as the kind of cop that you need to avoid. It’s embarrassing that a cop with his record has lasted so long in this city. I’m fine with cops making errors. I’m not ok with a cop who clearly has an view of the black community that everyone is a suspect. Not all cops are racist, but a lot of racist people become cops so that they can carry out their animosity towards the black community. When the chief has a record of protecting cops like that, we’ve got a big problem.
You probably haven’t lived here that long (decades), so you don’t remember years when the SPD was truly full of out of control unprofessional cops. Things have improved a lot since then, much of it well before Kerlikowske, but some things since as well. Don’t be in such a fucking hurry to accept the first alarmist characterization you hear.
I’m not accepting alarmist characterizations. I’m looking at very clear facts and making the case that the way the chief is shirking his oversight duties in unacceptable. Just because SPD used to be worse doesn’t mean we can’t try to make it better.
This just in: Review-board director exonerates officers, Kerlikowske
And you’re surprised? She reports to the chief. Do you think she’s going to criticize her boss over such a contentious issue? Why are you hanging around here, when you could be making some serious cash in the Bush justice department?
You really have no confidence in the professionalism of anyone, do you.
WRT to the Bush “justice” department comment: FU.
You really have no confidence in the professionalism of anyone, do you.
I have confidence in the professionalism of the reporters from both the Seattle Times and The Stranger who have done great work on this. Do you?
Lee, I asked you what evidence do you have that Valerie Plame was working on “non-proliferation” as you claimed.
You responded:
“You can look at the Answers.com page for Valerie Plame. If you think Answers.com is part of the vast left wing conspiracy, I can’t help you.”
Where at “Answers.com” does it state the Valerie Plame was working on “non-proliferation”?
Lee at #62, “One of us is an adult, the other is not. I obviously know you’re capable of having an adult conversation, but you choose not to because I will clean your clock if you ever tried.”
I think I will let your mature, reasonable, adult response speak for itself.
Where at “Answers.com” does it state the Valerie Plame was working on “non-proliferation”?
About a third of the way down that page, from David Corn’s article:
I think I will let your mature, reasonable, adult response speak for itself.
Whatever, when you grow a pair and want to do more than just call names and run away when people present facts, call me.