If the headline sounds like the opening to an offensive joke, well… it sorta is. Andrew at NW Progressive writes about Clark County’s Annual Mayor’s and Community Leaders Prayer Breakfast and how the organizers, the Full Gospel Business Men’s Fellowship International was forced to cancel a similar event last year in Beaverton OR:
Organizers canceled a planned prayer breakfast Tuesday after learning that most of Washington County’s mayors and one of two main speakers wouldn’t attend the May 5 event because a Muslim leader was excluded from participating.
Uniting the community’s pastoral, political and business people in prayer had been the purpose of the Mayors’ Prayer Breakfast of Washington County, he said. Without the host — Beaverton Mayor Rob Drake — and other mayors, he said, that couldn’t happen.
Shahriar Ahmed, president of the Bilal Mosque Association in Beaverton, along with Rabbi David Rosenberg of Portland, had been invited to the otherwise Christian breakfast at Drake’s request.
Ahmed had been scheduled to give the breakfast’s closing prayer from the dais before the fellowship informed him he couldn’t.
[…]
A fellowship spokesman, Peter Reding, had said the invitation was withdrawn by the steering committee because Muslims pray to a God they call Allah and they aren’t part of the fellowship’s “Judeo-Christian tradition.”
Ah yes… the Judeo-Christian tradition of excluding people of other faiths. And oh yeah… women too.
Andrew sums up the issue quite nicely:
The problem here is that this group is trying to hold an event with mayors participating as mayors – not as private citizens. It’s a “mayor’s prayer breakfast”, essentially. A prayer breakfast that is for “Christians” (certain types of “Christians”) only.
Hmm. I’ve got nothing against prayer. (Or breakfast, for that matter.) But if I were one of these mayors I’d think twice about attending this exclusionary event. Some blogger might get ahold of the list of attendees and publish it.
I, actually, AM anti-breakfast. Eating breakfast supports terrorism. Or some shit like that.
It’s shame this crap is still going on. This nation is not a christian theocracy.
You know who else likes breakfast? Cathy Allen. And Randy Pepple. Why is the political intellegencia not able to join a gym?
Greg “Hoss” Nickels: also eats breakfast. Also, Ron Sims eats breakfast. According to uSP, he also eats babies. Jewish, free-market babies.
Thinly disguised attack on religiion by Goldy.
Hey dude, should they have to also invite the Wiccans, Hindus, etc? What’s the diff?
Righton–
You forgot the Unitarian Universalists—
They start their prayers
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN!
Why? Because Islam is the fastest growing religeon in the world. Also, as you may or may not know, we are at war in a predominatly muslen country, so atleast some good pr stateside might be good.
You don’t think like me?
You don’t count.
Righton @5,
No… it’s an undisguised attack on elected officials using the trappings of public office to promote a particular religion… Evangelical Christianity.
Of course, these mayors are free to attend this prayer breakfast… but public disclosure is good thing, and I’m just saying that if they do attend the breakfast, their constiuents should know.
Goldy: Why do you hate America? What did a paternalistic theocracy ever do to you? You are a white male are you not? Can’t you just hush up for the good of all of us? Sheeshh…
I just remembered: didn’t members (R) of the WA state leg. walk out on a muslem leader who was leading some sort of prayer, or officiating over some sort of official event? Attn GOP: If it’s not a War Against Islam, then try your best to not make it LOOK like one.
Goldy, not buying it. Liberal, jewish, secular, point of view is undeniably anti religion. Somehow jews who have gone totally secular really hate Christianity.
Righton:
Damn right! Since they stuck that dude up on the stick they ain’t done nothin’ good for America. They insist on TALKING, rather than, well, you know. Just like the Negroes. They’ve all gotten all uppity and shit. But we’ll get them, with better use of epithets. You and Alphabet Soup will doubtless lead the crusade….
Goldy,
And you wonder why the US is having a problem on the war on terror…
It might just be that we are so engrossed in out poliyical correctness (ignorance) to realize that yes, it is a war on Islam, and that making sure that Muslim are present at functions such as this might just be a dumb move.
Oh sure, I know I am about to hear a bunch of crap about good muslims and not all muslims are terrorists, las time I checked though, all the tetrrorists I’ve heard of lately just happen to be Muslim.
@11: “…Didn’t memer of teh WA State Leg walk out on a Moslem leader…”
It was Lois McMahon, R, 26th District. She didn’t just walk out, but indulged herself in some ignorant and insulting comments about Moslems, assuming, incorrectly, that every Christian within earshot shared her point of view. She later apologized, but it was too little, too late. The largely conservative, Christian, district did not reelect her.
@14:
“all the terrorists I’ve heard of lately just happen to be Muslim”
“…I’ve heard of..”: I have no doubt that’s true in your case – selective hearing it’s called.
@ 15
Christian conservatives are weird about that kind of stuff. Many cc’s were sometimes quite bigoted towards Pam Roach and the Roach Clan because they are MORMONS. Mormons, they say, aren’t real christians. In fact, I would not be suprised if Dino Roosi is the first Catholic put up by the GOoPs for Gov. (The GOoPs used to [some say still do] have a fierce anti-papist element to them) Somebody check that about Dino!
@17:
I’ve noticed that too. There’s a dark side to conservative, evangelical Christianity, sometimes it is a smokescreen for virulent bigotry – I’ve especailly noticed it with Protestants, not only in response to Jews, and Moslems, but in regards to Mormons and Catholics, as well. However, I have to say that I’ve noticed the same virulent bigotry in the conservative Catholic community, especially towards Mormons. I’ve noticed it, I guess, in most of the “christian” religions. I wish that weren’t so, and while I don’t fully understand this, I think this hostility has its roots in the evangelical movement. In my opinion, this current trend with relgion as a tool to promote this assualtive, bigoted evangelism degrades Christianity. I refuse to let it represent me.
I was raised Unitarian Universalist, so I never understood why they tend to “hate” on each other. Like Mormons are so different anyway. It’s not like Pam Roach is crazy because she’s Mormon: she’d be fuckin’ off her nut anyway.
You guys equate sticking to theology as dark, dangerous, evil, hate, etc.
Nice leftie trick;
I’m not RC nor LDS but applaud both for sticking to their guns on theology.
The only religiion you guys want is one that bends to the culture..
Stuart Davis says:
All I ever wanted was Buddha without Buddhism
All I ever wanted was just Jesus Christ without the Christians
Me says:
There is no doubt that Evangelical Christianity has become increasingly divisive and arrogant. Rather than walk the walk they try to push their values and doctrine (and politics) on others and scath those who critisize them. My little fight with a local Baptist Church over expansion in my neighborhood (tearing down historic district homes) has taught me that these “True Believers” (google “true believer syndrome”) feel if you are not with them you are against them. What is so very wrong with this little prayer breakfast is that it had gotten that far. Another sign that religion is mixing with politics even further. And the new batch of evangelicals have a whole new agenda for you.
Stuart Davis says: All I ever wanted was to get laid in a haunted house.
@20: Bigotry isn’t theology. Churches were “sticking to their guns” on theology long before this last trendy, bullying, evangelical movement came about. As for “bending to culture” : I don’t think so. If I wanted to “bend to the culture” I’d be the same bigoted, gun toting, racist, sexist, jerk you are and claiming it was all in Jesus’ name.
Like I said, your kind doesn’t represent Christian principles, doesn’t represent Biblical teachings. It certainly doesn’t represent me. Never will.
RO @ 20
Hardly.
I don’t critique RCs or Evan. C’s for sticking to their theology, I criticize them for NOT doing so. Some RCs only see abortion and “gay” marriage as the VALUES issues. But Catholics are supposed to care about poverty, social justice, and protection of the weak (which is why they are so opposed to abortion) A majority of voters (and a majority among FAITH voters) consistently rate poverty, homelessness, healthcare, and nonviolence ahead of such issues. But Robertson, Falwell, and Dobson gain POLITICAL power subverting their faith for political gain.
Hardovertoport @ 16
With the exception of Mcveigh & Co, give examples of non-muslim terrorist activity in the past 10 years?
Swifty;
Ya’ll believe your own media too much; we don’t pay much attention to Robertson, Fallwell or Dobson. I know you think we do, but really, most don’t follow them. I know NPR and McDermott and Howard DEan want to divide by making these guys out to be evil AND powerful, but they really aren’t powerful.
RCs as best i can tell still care a lot about social justice, and more about that than they do contraception or abortion. That’s why US RC is at odds w/ Vatican.
@ 24
Columbine HS ’99
DC Sniper ’03
Eric Rudolf ’96
Basque sepearatists in Spain (various)
Omagh in N. Ireland (carbomb, deadliest ever) ’98
Swifty… You forget to mention hurricane katrina as well
@ 25
Robertson and Falwell may be dinosaurs, but they are replaced by Tony Perkins (Family Research Council), and Dobson still has street cred in DC. The hyperbole still flies though. (Example: Sen. Leahy was attacked as being anti-faith and anti-family. THe press release form his office was simple. The Sen. cannot comment at this time, because he is at Mass with his wife)
prr @14,
Okay… then I suppose it’s okay for me to blame all Germans for the Holocaust, all Russians for the pogroms, and all Christians for the Inquisition? How many centuries of oppression, torture and murder should the Jewish people endure before we have the right to broadly paint Christianity as a religion of violence, hate and bigotry?
You want to blame Islam? You better look at your own faith’s sorry and sordid history first.
Goldy, I”m ok w/ dissing my ancestors. In the words of Winston Churchill, “the Hun is either at your throat or under your foot”
Swifty;
I’ve listened enough to Leahy to believe the impact of his policies would be harmful to my free exercise of religion.
If you think so, far be it for me to dissuade you. But Leahy, a catholic, is commited to working to alleviate social injustice in a way that Brownback, Coburn, and others have no interest to.
Goldy @ 29
Seriously, look back at the post attack histories on terrorist attacks.
Where are the kids (future terrorists) found?
Who recruits them?
It’s not (no pun intended) a big leap of faith to pose the theory that the US may not have declared war on Islam but has Islam declared war on the US?
I forget which politician recently made the comment that all Islamic institutions in the US should be bugged, but he is dead on.
In World War 2, the internment camps for Japanese, Germans and German-Americans as well as a few Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians and Romanians may well be a bad memory for us, but you know what, they worked…
Were there innocents that were caught up in this? Absolutely and that sucks and we can apologize for it after the fact.
However, there were also Japanese, Germans and German-Americans, Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians and Romanian spies that were stopped in their tracks.
PRR, and likewise…
No elderly war veterans committed sabotauge….that is, today we strip search geriatrics at the airport, back in WW2 we addressed the real threat, not everybody.
I don’t know prr….
Islam didn’t necessarily declare war on the US. In fact, they declared war on culture and are using a society that we facilitated to wage it. It may have been unavoidable but here is how I see it.
Our need for Mid East resources to fuel western economies created an unprecidented class rift. Oil profits to the few and poverty to the rest (this has started to chang but it is a long time coming). With any economic rift you will find people willing to believe anything they are told because educational boundries prevent them from knowing any better. Mix that in with a good dose of religious intolerance and you have your average terrorist. But wait! There is more! As with any extremist, fundimentalist doctrine there are those poised to take advantage of the situation, ie.. Osama BinLaden, Pat Robertson. And imagine the jackpot finding financial support among the fringe elite! (see Bin Ladin Family -Abramhoff/Delay… shit take your pick, they are all over the place). What you get is a cottage industry of facist hate mongers who will NEVER be satisfied by any amount of blood or money.
This whole anti – American – anti Islamic – anti Jew crap just feeds off itself and pretty soon you have (err…oh too late) people pointing fingers about who started it. Who shot first???? Do you think 9-11 was the first shot? How about Desert Storm? WWII? Does anyone beside me relize how ridiculous it has gotten.
Ah heck, this stuff has been going on for thousands of years though. Imagine a war without a god to fight it for.
My real point is this: Societies create the conditions for conflict in many ways but most prominently religious, economic, ethnic (hand in hand with religious)and political. Rarely has there been a world power that has not suffered from it’s own prosperity and ideology, and I can’t think of many that have ever learned that lesson well. It’s what makes the evangelical christian movement, if you will, one of the most dangerous issues we face today.
Righton @ 34,
“today we strip search geriatrics at the airport”
This is in response to the liberal whinning.
Personally, I would prefer to see a man of middle eastern descent being dragged through security to look for box cutters than a 3 (or 87) year old. But to do so would be racial profiling.
Then again, if you keep being attacked by men of middle eatern descent and you are checking Grandma’s and Grandduaghters, so not to be accused of profiling, you should have you head examined.
Unfortunately (again, no puns here) to call a spade a spade in todays day and age is a crime.
Ooops… I meant to say terrorist and not “they”… see how quickly that happens, and I am an athiest.
Islam didn’t necessarily declare war on the US. In fact, terroists declared war on culture and are using a society that we facilitated to wage it. It may have been unavoidable but here is how I see it.
Rolling on the floor Jimmynap
You mean in a world of evil leaders, genocide, viruses, starvation, nukes, bombs, rape, murder, etc, that our threat is people wanting to share the Gospel? (that’s what evangelical means).
And I like a homemade biscuts and gravy…
Jimmynap @ 35
Excellent points.
However, you should expand this.
Any extremistm be that religious, political, whatever, is a dangerous path.
I get very scared when coming in contact with anyone who is declaring a far left, far right, jewish, chrisitian, etc rant.
exactly!
The Christian Fellowship would not allow a Muslim cleric to say the closing prayer because his religion called the One God ( Which all three religions agree is the one true God.) Allah instead of what they called Him. This is small-minded and un-American. It’s totalitarian.
Of Himself, if the Bible is to be believed, God has told us simply, albeit, somewhat cryptically that we may refer to Him as: “I Am That I Am.”
@ 41….
“This is small-minded and un-American”
Kind of like when the libs combined with the ACLU make saying merry christmas/ Happy Hanukah illegal or cancel Halloween for little kids?
Will Rons Sims reverse his ban on saying Merry Christmas?
re 43: Do you guys all get together and drink beer and smoke cigarettes and snicker out of the sides of your mouths while making cold and heartless comments? That’s the image you project.
rightoff @ thirty eight
Spreading the Gospel eh? Well, that in itself is not so bad as long as you are using a butter knife to spread it. But it has become something else as we see with the good ol’ boys breakfast meeting. Using an exclusive religious club within a political circle and you have created a small theocracy. We all see how well theocracy is working among some of the so-called “evil leaders”.
And frankly, Christianity doesn’t have a monopoly on charity for issues of starvation etc.. It does appears to have one for nukes though.
Just like terrorists misuse of Islam, sharing the Gospel has become a thinly vieled vehicle for spreading hate. Some are not and I know that from experience. But a smart person knows the difference and one of the first indications is when one can be excluded for having different beliefs… or is laughed at for them.
@ 45
Explain that as you’ve lost me.
I’, all for little kids be little kids and letting them believe in Santa (& Hunukah Hershell), the Easter Bunny, wu=itchesm goblins, etc…
Yet it seems to me that The ACLU and the liberals are all about forcing their own political agendas on society and basically taking these wonderful traditions away.
Seriously, explain this? Also, explain how wishing someone merry christmas is a bad thing? or having a christmas tree up in a shopping mall? or in front of a city owned building?
Where is the harm in this?
prr @ 24
here’s a sampling:
Aum Shinrikyo (Aum)
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)
Communist Party of Philippines/New People’s Army (CPP/NPA)
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA)
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Real IRA (RIRA)
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)
Revolutionary Nuclei (RN)
Revolutionary People’s Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C)
Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)
Shining Path (SL)
United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC)
@ 48
Now compare those with Muslim terrorists attacks in the past ten years
Suspected al-Qaeda Terrorist Acts
1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.
1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.
1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.
1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.
1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.
2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.
2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.
2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.
2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 14 German tourists.
2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.
2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing 1.
2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.
2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.
2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
2003 (May): 4 bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.
2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia housing compound, killing 17.
2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked 2 synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.
2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.
2004 (March): 10 bombs on 4 trains exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 202 and injuring more than 1,400.
2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.
2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed 9.
2004 (Dec.): Terrorists entered the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 9 (including 4 attackers).
2005 (July): Bombs exploded on 3 trains and a bus in London, England, killing 52.
Torridjoe; None on your list threatens me the way al quaeda and other muslims do. I’m assuming hezbollah and hamas would shoot at me if i got anywhere near them. IRA and ETA could care less about me.
prr @ 49
“Now compare those with Muslim terrorists attacks in the past ten years…”
why? I’ve already proven your contention to be ill-conceived, poorly researched and simply wrong. You didn’t suggest that terrorism was dominated by Muslims; you suggested it was the EXCLUSIVE TERRAIN of Muslims. And you’re wrong. So quit moving the goal posts, admit you were not well prepared to back up your statement, and
shut
the
fuck
up.
righton @ 51
Sorry, reality is not concerned with your misperceptions on the nature and reach of terror.
torridjoe; how many Americans on American soil has ETA killed?
You made up the list of terror threats i face…
Toidjoe,
My goal posts are firmly in place.
Quite Frankly, you are nitpicking a minor point in an ongoing discussion.
I am suggesting the Islam in general is something that breeds terrorism, and that in fact islam has declared war on the US, so worrying about inlcluding Muslim clerics is something we should be considering as a bad idea.
Go back and read all the posts and then add feedback.
BTW,
:and
shut
the
fuck
up.”
grow up
I thought this thread was about exclusion practiced by a group of christian politicians? If somehow you can relate the profanity and global issues to the subject matter it would be great. It is an interesting subject and I would like to think the discussion would include why a faith like Christianity would exclude another faith in a political format with the underpinnings of current and historical events that have us where we are today.
prr@55 and various: If you want an ongoing count of groups who practice terrorism in the US, go to the Southern Poverty Law center and read their intel report. (http://www.splcenter.org). I think most devout Moslems would tell you that Islam does not promote or countenance terror and that those who practice terrorism in the name of Islam are not representing Islam. They are simply murderous zealots who represent nothing but their perverted hatred of humanity and they do not represent Islam any more than the KKK represents Christianity, for instance, or anymore than environmental terrorist represent environmental causes. Zealotry isn’t confined to the Moslem community, we have more than enough of it in the Christian community as well, and if it seems that I notice it more there, it is because that is the cultural environment I am in.
That said, “evangelism” is also defined as “any zealous effort in the propagandizing for a cause” . If the point you are trying to make is that zealotry in general breeds terrorism, I am inclined to agree.
Reading this thread, it’s obvious “righton” is a “Christian” in name only. Jesus ought to sue for trade name misappropriation.
prr@43:
Many Christian groups are opposed to Halloween and were opposed to celebrating Halloween in school. In our area, those objections came from several churches in the area.
Fuck conservatives and fuck Jesus.
herbalizer@61: Not helpful.
prr @ 55
how can you claim you didn’t move the goalposts? You asked what kind of non-Islamic terror groups there were. I listed a number of them, and suddenly your question became “did non-Islamic groups commit MORE?” Thats moving the posts.
Islam in general breeds terrorism: link? How many times has Dearborn, MI experienced terror acts?
Islam has declared war on the US: link? That’s utter absurdity, of course. For one thing, “Islam” doesn’t do anything. Unlike the Catholic Church, there is no supreme cleric. The Pope could declare war, but nobody speaks for “Islam.”
Islam is a major world religion, on par and joined at the hip to Judaism and Christianity. They all flow from the exact same root. Your xenophobic fantasies are getting far away from you, and I suggest you consider your thoughts seriously, lest you further poison the well of good intent.
Torridjoe,
Okay, I’ll defer to your chain of thought.
Do you feel the Al Qaeda is not linked to Islam? Have we wrongly accused Al qaeda of acts of terrorism?
PRR @ 64
Al-Qaeda claims a link to Islamic faith, but that doesn’t mean that they refer to or practice Islam. As one tiny example, several of the hijackers were seen at various times to be smoking, drinking, eating pork, and chasing women.
Have we wrongly accused al-qaeda of acts of terror? Undoubtedly. Of course, we’ve correctly accused them a number of times as well.
Torridjoe,
I think it’s fair to say that you are in denial as to the role of Islam, it’s role in Al Qeada and how this impacts the current situation.
As one tiny example, how many reports have you witnessed regarding an ( just for you torridjoe, Alqeada linked ) terrorist acts where the words, Allah Akbar (SP?) have been uttered just prior to a head be sawed off, or a bomb exploding? I’ve got news for you my friend, that’s not a coincidence.
We have been soft on middle eastern terrorism for decades and while this war looks hopeless, we may very well look back on this 20 years from now as the administration who actually had some vision as to how to deal with the middle eastern problem.
Additionally, I have a feeling that the same reports that came out after Vietnam will ring true again, our enemy could not have acheived a victory without the protestors and the press in the United States.
Bringing this discussion back into the folds of Goldy’s original post. Worrying about excluding Muslims clerics is just absolutely pathetic.
righton @ 44: Um, there was no such ban; that little misunderstanding was clarified back on December 11, 2001. Sims just encouraged King County employees to be welcoming and sensitive to everyone when the holidays first approached after September 11. Nothing about not saying “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Chanukah”. Scratch that myth.
prr @ 43, 47 (cf. hardovertoport @ 60): Yet another stupid myth. The ACLU has never tried to discourage holiday greetings or take away Halloween (Halloween??) or prevent kids from believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny (or witches [Hermione Grainger?] or this “Hanukah Herschel” fellow). Let’s see something concrete to back up your paranoid fantasies, or else a retraction from you.
And there’s nothing wrong with a shopping mall putting up a Christmas tree, or a creche, or a big honkin’ cross for that matter, if they thought it would increase business; but the city isn’t entitled to establish or favor any religion, so ix-nay on the ee-tray at the City Hall or the elementary school. You want a Christmas tree at your kids’ school? Send ’em to Sunday School.
prr @ 66 says “Worrying about excluding Muslims clerics is just absolutely pathetic.”
I bet if all the Christian pastors or Jewish rabbis were excluded from a Mayor’s prayer breakfast, on account of their religion, you’d throw a hissy fit. Get some perspective, and re-read Goldy @ 9.
david; ok, maybe only a firm suggestion, not a legal ban. same problem.. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....ay12.shtml
David @ 68
let me guess, your one of thoise jackasse that supported the recent court case in California making the Pledge of Allegiance “unconstitutional”.
prr @ 66
Wow. An uneducated, misguided waif straps explosives to his waist, and the “proof” that Islam had something to do with turning himself into a human bomb is because he shouts, “Allah’u’Akhbar!” before he presses the button?! I can’t imagine a more ignorant statement.
The phrase, Allah’u’Akhbar, translated literally as “God is Most Great,” is a common greeting in Islam. The very purpose of that greeting is to remind one who invokes it of God’s place and our relationship to Him–a relationship within which we are as coarse as clay, wherein God is utterly and completely capable of exercising His Will regardless of what we choose to do. To invoke it before killing innocent civilians is to deny its very meaning.
No, the only denial going on here is your denial of your very own prejudice and ignorance. A friend of mine once defined a bigot as someone who is ignorant of his own ignorance.
Ignorance is no justification for a blasé attitude regarding the exclusion of certain religious practitioners from a political prayer meeting in a country where prohibition of the state’s establishment of religion is enshrined in the very first amendment to that country’s constitution.
prr @ 71
The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held that forcing children in public schools to utter the phrase “Under God”–a phrase that was not part of the original pledge of allegiance–represents an establishment of religion that is contrary to the First Amendment. We can debate this if you’d like, but let’s at least start the debate with an accurate statement of the facts.
Now, if you really want to debate this, then please explain why children attending public schools ought to be compelled to recite the phrase “Under God” as part of the morning pledge of allegiance recital, and what, on earth, that has to do with starting off a day of school.
prr@71: Again, prr, there are a num ber of Christian religions that don’t support saying the Pledge of Allegiance either.
I’m sure you know this, but the phrase “under God” didn’t make it into the Pledge of Allegiance until sometime in the 50’s, during the Eisenhower administration, I think. Maybe if the Pledge of Allegiance had been left the way it was it wouldn’t have become a court issue.
I think I see your point..
So we should always go back to things the way they were when our ofunding fathers started out?
So where does this philosophy stop?
Slavery? genocide?
prr@74:
No, prr – you didn’t see a point. I didn’t have one, I was just trying to be informative. But since you want a point so desperately, chew on this: I don’t personally care what the courts do on this, one way or the other. However, since I’ve never considered the pledge of allegiance a prayer, and since I don’t confuse patriotism and religion, I think the pledge of allegiance is just fine without “under God” in it.
And, I think you’re silly.