Josh Marshall wants some answers on the “Ground Zero” mosque story
For most of us who are anything but quite young, we grew up in America where Islam, as a domestic social or cultural reality, was close to invisible. That doesn’t mean there weren’t any Muslims in the US. The fact that some of our most searing and for many of us some of our first experiences with Islam came in the form of a catastrophic terrorist attacks by Islamic radicals and creates a situation ripe for exploitation. And here we have it. We’re in a midst of a spasm of nativist panic and raw and raucous appeals to race and religious hatred. What effects this will have on the November election strikes me as not particularly relevant. What’s important is compiling some record of what’s afoot, some catalog for understanding in the future who was responsible and who was so willing to disgrace their country and their principles for cheap advantage.
Justin Elliott provides some of those details in a War Room post here. The backstory is certainly disgraceful, but it’s also a good lesson in how this stuff works.
Back in December, no less than Laura Ingraham on Fox News thought that the mosque was a good idea when interviewing Daisy Khan, whose husband is leading up the project. However, after a New York Post article in May, things went haywire on right-wing blogs. None of the criticisms of the mosque had even a remote connection to reality, but no matter – eventually Rudy Giuliani, Sarah Palin, and Newt Gingrich were all pandering to this firestorm of ignorance.
And then yesterday, I watched Village idiot Matthew Dowd on the Sunday morning shows trying to claim that “tolerance runs both ways” and that Obama really stepped in it – by taking a position that was more conservative than what Laura Ingraham said only 8 months before. The fact that bigots with blogs can have this much influence over our national discourse should give everyone pause about what’s happening in this country right now.
Lee, I want to see if I you are consistent in your views …
If the U.S. were to drop a nuke on Mecca, it would then be perfectly reasonable to build a giant church where the Kaaba once stood, and Muslims would be intolerant if they objected. Correct?
@1
The seen’ the same thing, don’t pretend they are.
@1
If the U.S. were to drop a nuke on Mecca, it would then be perfectly reasonable to build a giant church where the Kaaba once stood, and Muslims would be intolerant if they objected. Correct?
1) There’s no reason to drop a nuke on Mecca.
2) If the U.S. did drop a nuke on Mecca, that would be different than 9/11, because Al-Qaeda was a small terrorist organization, not a sovereign nation.
3) The people who are building the Islamic Center/Mosque have no more connection to the people behind 9/11 than you do. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
4) Much of the Muslim world IS intolerant of other religions. The importance of allowing the Islamic Center/Mosque is establishing to the Muslim world that we are more tolerant – and that’s what makes us great.
5) Please stop trying to create analogies. You’re not very good at it, and it only makes you look stupid.
See this Salon.com article this morning about the timeline.
This whole shitstorm from the racist right seems to have been ignited by that raving, frothing, hateful fool Pam Geller. (See James Wolcott for doing yeoman’s work taking down this loon on a regular basis.)
Troll
Not a very good example.
I doubt the US would do this in the name of your God, no matte how vengeful your Jesus is. Besides .. WE have seperation of Chrush and State!
As for what would be perfectly reasonable, how about flying the Stars and Bars over state houses? Or Or burying a temple under dirt and then building a cathedral over the temple?
What a Teabagger World
(To the tune of It’s a Wonderful World; HT: Bill in Portland Maine)
I see bags of Tetley, Red Rose too
Dangling from pissed folks, shouting at you
And I think to myself, what a teabagger world.
Tri-corner hats of blue, and faces white
Glocks strapped to ankles, folks wound up tight
And I think to myself, what a teabagger world.
The spelling of the signs, they hoist up in the sky
Say “Get A Brain MORANS!” to people passing by
I see folks shaking fists, saying “Government we hate!”
They’re really saying, “We lost in ’08.”
“Terror babies” scheme! Brown people plot!
Obama’s a Muslim! And that’s all they got.
And I think to myself, what a teabagger world
Yes I think to myself, what a teabagger world.
Ohhhhh…Tyranny!
Lee
Yes
Sadly true.
“The people who are building the Islamic Center/Mosque have no more connection to the people behind 9/11 than you do.”
Don’t make me dig-up old news stories of regular, moderate Muslim American families, who upon learning of the terrorist attacks back on 9/11, began cheering, laughing, and clapping in support.
Another case of the BUTS.
I’m not a racist, but.
I’m for religious tolerance, but.
I’m a fiscal conservative, but.
I’m a strict constitutionatist, but.
If we could only harness the power of all those buts for good. Enough power to keep several midwestern towns running.
Buts, Tomorrow’s Greenish (ugh) Energy!
@8 Troll
Ok .. go ahead!
Maybe you ought to recite this:
أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأشهد أن محمد رسول الله
Ash-hadu alla ilaha illallah-wa ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasulullah
“I bear witness that there is no God except Allah and Muhammad (SAW) is His messenger”.
Then you can join el Qaeda!
This ground zero mosque story isn’t about tolerance, it’s about sensitivity to the surviving families of the 9/11 victims. Building a mosque on the ground zero site would be offensive to many surviving family members and their friends. Just as it’s offensive to Muslims when their “prophet’s” image is depicted. Most people avoid depicting that image out of respect for Muslims, even though we have the right to do it. Not everything one has the “right” to do, should be done. Other factors must be considered.
@8
Don’t make me dig-up old news stories of regular, moderate Muslim American families, who upon learning of the terrorist attacks back on 9/11, began cheering, laughing, and clapping in support.
I will make you, because you won’t be able to find any. Moderate Muslims everywhere were horrified by 9/11. Moderate Muslim Americans particularly so. If you think otherwise, you’re neck-deep in a fantasy world.
Muslims, and their apologists, demand that we be tolerant of them. But do they walk the talk? Are they tolerant of things they don’t like?
Oh wait. Here’s a story…
Muslims oppose a Jewish “Museum of Tolerance” on Muslim land.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/.....ry/?hpt=T2
@11
This ground zero mosque story isn’t about tolerance, it’s about sensitivity to the surviving families of the 9/11 victims.
Well, no. It’s about freedom of religion, and what that means to America.
Building a mosque on the ground zero site would be offensive to many surviving family members and their friends.
I doubt that, but even if it were true, we DON’T have a right to NOT be offended. That’s a pre-requisite for having freedom of religion.
Just as it’s offensive to Muslims when their “prophet’s” image is depicted.
And it would be just as wrong to infringe on anyone’s rights to draw a picture of Mohammad.
Most people avoid depicting that image out of respect for Muslims, even though we have the right to do it.
True, and I like the fact that you’re making a comparison between the Muslims who go ape-shit over people drawing Mohammad, and the people who are going ape-shit over this Islamic Center. They are equal parts crazy.
Not everything one has the “right” to do, should be done. Other factors must be considered.
That’s the definition of political correctness. And I find it appalling that you believe so strongly in it.
@13
Muslims, and their apologists, demand that we be tolerant of them. But do they walk the talk? Are they tolerant of things they don’t like?
No, they’re often not. In fact, they’re often terrible. The point is to be BETTER than them.
Check this out. These are photos from the so called ‘Hallowed Ground’ that the righties are whining about. Strip clubs, off track betting and Mickey Ds.
http://daryllang.com/blog/4421
@11
Sensitivity to the 9/11 families? Where were you when Anne Coulter and other righties told the 9/11 widows to shut the fuck up?
@17 Exactly. Ann Coulter and most of the right HATES New York and HATES the 9/11 widows (because they had the nerve to criticize W).
And how about this @11…we leave it up to the actual people who LIVE in New York and not the Republicans of Alabama or Kansas to decide what gets built in New York City…a place they don’t like anyway because it’s full of blacks Jews and gays.
Look kiddies…this is the thing the right wing always wanted ANYWAY! They’re always going ON AND ON about why aren’t there moderate Muslims coming out and speaking against terrorism and for tolerance. So this group IS…it’s an interfaith group looking to bridge the western moderate Muslims. Exactly what we supposedly want.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m for banning all religions. I think they cause more harm than good. I know I’m in the minority and most of society has always worshiped Isis, Athena, Odin, Zeus, Jehovah, Mohammad or Joseph Smith. You’d think we’d start to out grow this by now.
I know I know. Your religion (whatever it is) is true and real and I’m insulting it, but you know EVERY other religion in the history of mankind is fake, only YOURS is real. (sigh). Again the difference between a “true believer” and an atheist is VERY small. A “true” believer knows there are 175 religions around the world, and 174 of them are made up and not true. An atheist knows there are 175 religions around the world, and 175 of them are made up and not true.
You take away the pretense of religion, the 9/11 terrorists just become killing psychos…the KKK just murdering sociopaths. They lose the pretense that they’re “magically” the moral good guys. Remember that…BOTH of these groups (the 9/11 terrorists and the KKK) think THEY’RE the good guys. They think “god” is on their side and the people they’re killing are the evil ones. Irony is a bitch.
@18 Alki
Great post, thank you!
“Again the difference between a “true believer” and an atheist is VERY small. A “true” believer knows there are 175 religions around the world, and 174 of them are made up and not true. An atheist knows there are 175 religions around the world, and 175 of them are made up and not true.”
I pan to cross post this, with attribution at SJ!
OK, I am not going to do the research for you (I have), tell me Righties, what were all the faiths of the victims of 911? Were they all Christian? DO you know the breakdown?
And again, I ask you why did all the R’s (except for 12) in Congress vote NO on the 911 Rescuers Heath Act?
Hypocrite’s
“The fact that bigots with blogs can have this much influence over our national discourse should give everyone pause about what’s happening in this country right now.”
Copy that. A gaggle of right-wing bloggers were polled about the worst American criminal in history. The results are astounding:
Lunatic fringe
The March on Selma
Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, and Atheists.
And on the “other side” …
religious bigots.
Some photos of the neighborhood around ground 0: http://daryllang.com/blog/4421
To be seen in that neighborhood: porn palaces and gambling parlors. No complaints from conservatives, so conservatives obviously approve of porn and gambling and oppose religion. What a surprise.
Why do conservatives oppose the not-on-ground-0 “mosque”? They hate our freedoms.
I have an idea.
If the right has so much disdain for Islam, why don’t THEY raise money to build their own center?
I suggest that the Mygod Center be 16 stories rather than 15 stories tall.
Why is there even a discussion about the ‘Ground Zero Mosque”. It’s not a mosque, and it’s not at Ground Zero. The far right has co-opted the language and turned an Islamic Community Center with a pool, theater, classrooms, restaurant (and, oh yes, a prayer room, too) that is a few blocks away from the old WTC site into the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’. What a steaming pantload they have handed us, and we all took the bait.
Should we now start calling every YMCA a Cathedral if it contains a chapel room?
Show version – it’s not a mosque, and it’s not at ‘Ground Zero’. Don’t let the wingnuts put it into that context.
Terrorist organization Hamas now agrees with Obama over the placement of a victory mosque on ground zero.
http://voices.washingtonpost.c....._obam.html
@25
You’re right, and I should refrain from using those terms in the future…
@26
There’s no such thing as a “victory mosque” being built on Ground Zero.
And why would it be a surprise that Hamas supports the building of an Islamic Center somewhere?
Was there a point to this comment, or were you concerned that some folks in this comment thread didn’t already know how big of a moron you are?
Why Cordoba?
Why is the Mosque at ground zero to be called the Cordoba Center?
Cordoba was the home of the caliphate that ruled Andalusia before the conquest by Christianity created Spain.
For many Muslims and Jews, the Andalusian Era, centered around Cordoba, has become a mythical golden age. From that age , we have great teachers .. Maimonides, Halevy, Abravanel, … the Kabala and much of modern medicine began in this tolerant society.
The Ground Zero Islamic center was named for a period in Spanish-Muslim history that some call a golden age of tolerance.
The achievements of that culture are very true, but unlike America, Islam never treated “others” as equals. Jews were repeatedly confined to ghettos or forced to convert. There is a huge difference between the exceptionalism of America, where all peoples are accepted as Americans, and Cordoba where the Islam merely tolerated Jews and Christians.
Sadly, the Right in America sees America as a tolerant place, a place where they are the true majority and the majority tolerate the rest of us.
I recommend that the Right read Washington’s letter to the synagogue at Newport, RI. The Jews of Rhode Islam had written expressing hope that the new nation would tolerate us. Washington said, no, “we” can not tolerate you because we are all the same.
That is the American view.
I also strongly recommend Mark Tracy’s essay on the history of Islamic Tolerance and the name “Cordoba.”
cross posted from SJ
The site in question is not on “Ground Zero”, but several blocks away in an empty retail space. The proposed community center would included a $100 million dollar refurbishment of the building to include a swimming pool, meeting rooms and other things that would be a benefit to the community.
The Islamic group leading this project has actually been in that community for over thirty years. They lost members of their congregation in the towers.
The community gets a brand new community center, paid for with private funds. They get one more piece of economic blight removed from their neighborhood. Meanwhile, there many other buildings and rental spacesaround the site that remain empty.
If people are really serious about what is proper and not proper about the area then invest in revitalizing the whole area, not just the footprints of the towers.
One last thing, your analogy of Mecca has no bearing in reality. A closer example would be not building a Christian church in Oklahoma City because Timothy McVeigh was a Christain terrorist.
Lee, I want to see if your sympathies lie with Islam or America.
If Walmart proposed building a store two blocks from your house, would you oppose it?
@25 Seattle Mike,
In Islam, a mosque is much more than “just” a chapel. Moreover, the proposed Cordoba Center is planned AS an Islamic answer to 9/11.
What is wrong with that? I would love to see a place where all Americans can celebrate our resistance to bigotry in the name of our individual religions and cultures. That is the triumph of America, our REAL exceptionalism.
I wish the Islamic Center was to be the start of building a World Center of Peace. Lets build more churches, synagogues, temples, chapels, podium for dissent and places for meditation.
@31
Let me get this straight, if I can, here is your Analogy:
Islam is to Mosque/Community Center as America is to Wal Mart
And, in your opinion, a person’s answer to this analogy is the test of whether or not they are for America?
It must be Troll’s day to collect minimum wage from the Evergreen “Freedom” Foundation to infect HA.
Memo to EFF: You get what you pay for.
Lee,
I’m also curious about where the right-wing frothing at the mouth over so-called “anchor babies”, birthright citizenship, and the 14th Amendment is coming from. To me it looks like another made-up contriversy being fanned by right wing blogs and talk radio.
It is rather disturbing to hear members of Congress discuss repealing the 14th Amendment or even worse, trying to pass legislation to repeal birthright citizenship that would stand in direct violation of it.
Assuming the Karl Rove/Grover Norquist/James O’Keefe Ratfuck Machine is still in working order, we can’t discount the possibility that the right learned of the mosque proposal last year and did everything they could to give it momentum, with the specific intent of using it as cause celebre to pour a bucket of tar on the Democrats going into the election.
@35 This issue comes up every so often–it was a big deal in California about 15 years ago, when in addition to the general xenophobic grumbling, the cost of providing childbirth services to undocumented parents began to weigh on the health care system.
@31
Lee, I want to see if your sympathies lie with Islam or America.
My sympathies lie with both. Everyone should be allowed to practice their religion freely, and that’s how I demonstrate my American values.
If Walmart proposed building a store two blocks from your house, would you oppose it?
No. And I don’t have even the vaguest clue how this is supposed to be some kind of parallel. Do you consider your local Wal-Mart a place of worship?
@35
I’m also curious about where the right-wing frothing at the mouth over so-called “anchor babies”, birthright citizenship, and the 14th Amendment is coming from. To me it looks like another made-up contriversy being fanned by right wing blogs and talk radio.
It comes from people who are concerned about “limited government” (snark)
@39
I was thinking more in the sense of documenting where the current flare up in the meme came from. Though I’m pretty sure Malkin has been flogging this for years.
OK wingnuts, how exactly do you propose stopping the Cordoba House from being built without violating the Constitution?
@40
Look at the link in the original post from Justin Elliott. It provides a good timeline for this specific incident. And that timeline is similar to how a lot of these other flare-ups happen. They start on the blogs, which generates a bunch of chatter directed at both right-wing politicos and the news media. Before long, they either address it, or get accused of being part of the effort to suppress the importance of the story.
@38 “Do you consider your local Wal-Mart a place of worship?”
Well…in a way, “yes” might be a plausible answer. It’s certainly a monument to capitalism, which many on the right seem to revere the most despite their professed regard for a certain Jewish carpenter. Additionally…if you watch peoples’ behavior in a place like that (not only Wal-Mart, but Costco, Ikea, Home Depot et al) it’s not difficult to perceive a lot of it as ritualistic.
But yeah….the author if the post you’re responding to does achieve a remarkable level of inanity.
@41
I dont think they can…or even should try stopping it.
However, people are free to voice their displeasure at the mosque construction all they want, which I think has some valid points.
if people REALLY wanted to stop the mosque construction, maybe they should vote in something like the Critial Areas Ordinance(CAO) – it sure has fucked over the land owners and developers here, and kept them from building.
Hmmm ….
I would oppose WalMart building a megastore two blocks form where I live .. that is ww have zoning laws.
FWIW ..
I live one block form a private, girls-only secondary school. Along with my neighbors, we OPPOSED an expansion of the school’s atheletic facilities because the new gym would create a traffic jam.
I suppose the porn shops and burly theaters near the Islamic Center could complain if they felt an Islamic Center was going to hurt the character of their neighborhood.
By the way, across the Soth there are confederate cemetaries. Maybe we Americans should propose building American Cemeteries near to those place of hallowed ground?
for more info….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S....._(Seattle)
even the queers get into the act….
I just find it interesting that liberals find themselves aligned with Hamas on this. It’s a big HMMMMM moment.
@47
I just find it interesting that liberals find themselves aligned with Hamas on this. It’s a big HMMMMM moment.
Why? Conservatives are aligned with Hamas on a number of issues (gay rights, drug laws, the right to own guns). Does that give you a HMMMMM moment?
The fact that Hamas supports the building of an Islamic Center in New York City isn’t all that odd. In fact, it’s exactly what you’d expect. And it’s not ‘liberal’ to support freedom of religion, it’s American to do so.
@47
Crusader, do you also find it interesting the the liberals are on the side of the founders of the US Constitution (see article 1, Bill of Rights), or are your HMMMMMM moments only guided by your own personal bigotry and ignorance?
If anyone is truly interested in learning more about Islam from a balanced, unbiased site, I suggest going here:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
ObaMao has really created a mess again, hasn’t he. Dems are furious. He MUST be doing this on purpose so R’s get control of the House/Senate or both so he improves his odds off getting re-elected in 2012.
If the Dems control everything, ObaMao is going the way of Jimmy Carter!!
Read this article
http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....ue-debate/
I also saw a suggestion that ObaMao call for a Root Beer Summit!
TOO DAMN FUNNY!
ObaMao stepping up, letting other Dems praise him and then backtracking is hysterical.
Isn’t it clear to you ObaMao worshippers that this guy is drunk with power and all about himself??
Progressivism was merely a means to an end for ObaMao.
You KLOWNS were/ARE his USEFUL IDIOTS!
By the time ObaMao is done, Atheist Progressivism will be dead & buried.
Thank God!
@49
are those the same liberals who are trying to take apart the 2nd Amendment(right to bear arms) and the 1st Amendment(freedom of speech)?
just curious
Goldy suggested yesterday that Dino Rossi is tainted by being at the same event as someone carrying a confederate flag, therefore Goldy must also believe Obama is tainted by taking the same position as Hamas the the ground zero victory mosque.
I find it rather crude that we’re building an office tower on hallowed ground where there should be a park and memorial.
I see not one of you righties have the guts or smarts to answer comment #20.
@54
I agree with that.
a “my pet goat” library and theme park is what should be built on the wtc site. never forget “my pet goat!”
I totally think we should pass a law making it illegal to build a mosque next to ground zero.
Then we could pass a law making it illegal to build any church next to a native American burial site. After all, if the mosque is disrespectful to the 3,000 9/11 victims, it would certainly be disrespectful to the millions of natives killed in the name of european religions.
And we should make it illegal to build anything related to an evangelical religion within two miles of a Planned Parenthood facility. We all remember how “moderate evangelicals” have celebrated the deaths of abortion providers in the past and it would be disrespectful to the families of those victims.
Of course, we should also make it illegal for the Catholic Church to build any facility within two miles of any of the victims of the clerical abuse that’s occured in the last 50 years. Again, that would be very insensitive to the victims and the families of the victims.
A Greek Orthodox church was destroyed inthe 9-11 attack. Their efforts to rebuildhave been thwarted time and again….to replace a church, not build a new one.
How old is Troll, like twelve or something?… grossly immature rants that are either ad hominem or strawman attacks horrendously off mark. Ignore him.
11 Troll
Maybe it would; I don’t know.
But this is a community center, not a mosque, and it is being built in an old abandoned Burlington Coat Factory warehouse blocks away from the WTC site. Which makes your statement, in every conceivable way, irrelevant and beside the point entirely.
While we are all at it, am I the only one mystified by the sanctification of 9/11?
Yes, 3000 Americans (and visitors) died.
Yes, that number would have been much bigger if not for the heroism of many and some good engineering in the Towers.
But ,,
This was not Hiroshima or Dresden. This was not the massacre at Little Knee or the atrocities at any civil war battle field.
By ANY estimate the deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, including deaths of our own troops, FAR exceeds the 3.000.
Our own deaths of AIDS and traffic accidents far exceed this.
We could have built a replacement tower grander than anything in the world for a fraction of what we have spent on Bush’s war in Iraq.
Bottom line, the real significance of 9/11 was that the magic shield between the US and the old world came down. The wars and hatreds at our roots are now here too and we are pissed. We are pissed that the entire US is not off the menu from the afflictions of the rest of the world.
So, how does the right want to memorialize 9/11? By bringing home the same hatefulness that afflicts the rest of the world.
What I think is, if you are a family member of a 9/11 victim, or have a legitimate local interest in NYC zoning and land-use regulations (which this project complies with, BTW), then perhaps you have something relevant to say about this. Otherwise, not so much.
And at that, I would not think that 9/11 family members should have anything approaching veto power over a project such as this. Their opinion is appreciated, though I haven’t heard from one yet.
Hey, maybe one of our argumentative trolls can find a cite from someone with a legitmate interest who has something to say. I doubt that they can.
Othwerwise it’s just a bunch of garden variety Republican fear-mongering; an election-year “the brown people are coming to take over and install Sharia law and kills us all” bgotry campaign.
Naaah.. That’s was the function of right wing trolls who voted twice for the miserable joke that caused this mess in the first place.
KLOWN???? Useful idiot #1 or #2 at the very least.
And noooooo… You’ll liked him just fine enough to vote for him twice.
Thwarted by what? Did the right wing chain letter you got go into details?
Is there any better illustration of the total lack of substantive ideas and plans from the Republican Party than them taking up this non-issue?
@66
Jesus, am I the only Democrat here who understands that the majority of New Yorkers who are opposed to a 32 story mega-mosque being build on the exact site where the World Trade Center once stood, are Democrats?
Do your research, people. Most New Yorkers are Democrats.
The Republicans may very well take the House in November waving another “Contract on America”.
What are they going to do?
Cut taxes?
They did that at least twice during Bush and what did it accomplish? Forestalled a recession? Hardly!
Cut “burdensome” regulations?
They did that in spades and we saw a meltdown on Wall Street and a massive oil spill in the Gulf. Drill baby drill!
Vote Republican or Teabagger Party for more of the same.
Yawnnn… You’re not a Democrat. You’re a liar.
@66: Yep. But sadly, it can be effective in low turnout context.
The real takeaway / sobering thought for me is that naked bigotry is somehow now OK in public discourse.
Bigotry used be couched by the Rs: “Law and Order”. Now they liteally come right out with it on CNN: “terror babies”.
In short, manifest evil. These are “ends justify the means” kind of folks and we all know where that goes…
It indicates to me a whole other kind of “politics” from our side in response.
O seems to be giving them rope to hang themselves. I wouldn’t be too sure that it isn’t in the D’s favor to have the R’s paint themselves into a dark and twisted corner.
This is going to be an interesting election to watch.
The venom and volume on the right concerning this non-issue is truly frightening. It’s also embarrassing for the rest of the world to observe this. This debacle makes it clear as day that wingnuttia has no respect for fundamental American values.
@67
It takes a special type of wingnut to use sarcasm to make fun of his own argument. Kudos.
67. Troll spews:
@66
Jesus, am I the only Democrat here…
You are neither a Democrat nor a follower of mine.
This just demonstrates what complete cowards today’s Republicans have become. They’re willing to discard basic constitutional rights because it seems “insensitive” and might make 9/11 families “uncomfortable”.
Religious freedom and America’s unique ability to tolerate all religions worshipping side by side is what makes our country great. This is what separates the USA from communists and theocratic governments around the world.
AQ must just love the GOP for making this into a religios war. Good job cowards.
Re my comment @70, Naked Bigotry:
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded
@73 Jesus
Welcome.
We should talk.
I am that I am.
The problem with Islam is that it’s stuck in the Seventh Century. One just needs to take a look at the cover of the recent Time Magazine of an Afghani woman whose nose and ears were cut off by her husband for some “offense.” I guess that’s just a “marital tiff” in the Islamic countries: be-headings and stonings to death are reserved for more serious offenses, like reading a Western magazine in public or listening to smuggled-in recordings of NPR’s All Things Considered.
Let’s face it folks: we ain’t gonna change Islam. They haven’t had their Renaissance, Protestant Reformation or their Enlightenment. They’re thirteen centuries behind us, and we can’t bring them up to speed – they have to do it on their own.
We need to cease all military ops in the Middle East, break ties with Israel (deal at arm’s length with them and everyone else, and dis-entangle ourselves, militarily, with Europe and Asia.
The new St. Nikolas Greek Orthodox Church that is planned is not a direct replacement; it is MUCH larger, and immediately adjacent to the memorial site. They were GIVEN the land, and something like $10 million towards construction. Their plans kept expanding; the last thing they were told was that the church could not be taller than the memorial directly across the street.
The (not a) mosque that is (not) at Ground Zero is 2 blocks from the northern edge of the WTC site. The church is directly across the street to the south of the site. The (not a) mosque that is (not) at Ground Zero is not within site of the WTC site at all. It’s neighbors are an Off Track Betting parlor, NY Dolls ‘gentlemen’s club’, and other buildings that are so very well suited to being on ‘sacred ground’.
A quick look at Google Maps shows 2 Christian churches directly across the street from the site of the memorial put in place of the Murrah Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City (one to the SW, one to the SE), one 1 block away (to the NE), and the OK Diocese HQ 2 blocks away. McVeigh was Christian. How offensive is this?
@77 PI
Mummar ibn Suleiman
Nothing like a wedge issue to bring the wackos back to the republican fold.
Sorry Cynical et al-
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. And wasting time and resources on this non-issue might be good strategy (or might not) on the part of Republicans, but it isn’t good citizenship.
If they own the property, if they have the money, and if they comply with applicable zoning and permnitting laws, these folks have the right to build here. It is tactless. It is calculated to increase misunderstandings and division between the Islamic minority and the Christian majority in this country. It shows a lack of respect and regard for the adopted country of those who would build it. But they have the right to all these traits, and to build their mosque.
You and I don’t have any constitutional right to not be offended.
From Zotz I expect unthinking an irrational reactionism.
But Proud, you understand at some level what I understand. Those on the opposite side of the political fence just have a different vision for this country. They aren’t evil. They aren’t nazis or communists. They just believe different things about economics, social structure and so on.
The exceptions? Savage, Limbaugh and their ilk on the right who prefer hatred and division to honest dispute about the manifest errors in liberal thinking for one. Olbermann, Maddow, and Goldy (added for local color, not to equate his influence with either of the other people) who demonize and lie abot the opposition. And in Goldys case the entire country. (Fuck off America. Really. Fuck off, does this ring any bells?)
You have proof?
Lost–
Of course they have the legal right to build if they comply with all the zoning, get appropriate permits etc.
That is not what ObaMao first said though.
That is the problem.
Listen to what ObaMao said.
The sponsors of Park 51 said the name [Cordoba House] had been meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, where Muslims, Christians, and Jews co-existed peacefully.
Wikipedia
What a political nightmare for the Dummocrats!
NOW Harry Reid goes against ObaMao!
I love seeing Marxists in turmoil.
It’s food for the soul.
http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....ue-debate/
PS–
You bet I want ObaMao and Reid to fail on their Marxist policies!!
Klown @86 didn’t mention the part that says “Republicans should show their sincerity about sensitivity to Sept. 11 survivors by backing a high-profile bill to grant health benefits to rescue workers, something that stalled in Congress earlier this month.” But then he doesn’t care about the first responders.
Re 83
If what you’re asking is whether I have proof that Islamic people are tactless etc, I don’t. This is because I don’t believe such a statement to be true. I was referring to this group building this mosque.
Do you want ‘proof’ that it’s tactless to build a large Islamic center and mosque a couple of blocks from where Islamic terrorists destroyed a landmark building, killing 3000 people?
No, I don’t have that proof either. I don’t have proof that it’s tactless to go to a funeral in shorts and a tank top. I don’t have proof that it’s tactless to invite the stripper from the bachelor party to the wedding.
To rational people all these are pretty obvious.
@85
“…Córdoba, where Muslims, Christians, and Jews co-existed peacefully.”
Sure, provided the Christians and Jews were Dhimmi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
82. lostinaseaofblue
PROVE IT!!!
Shouldn’t your list include
Palin .. death panels and witch doctors?
Bush/Chaney .. el Qaeda in Iraq>
Hannity,… ACORN
Beck, Coulter ??
As for
Olbermann show me ONE example were he has lied,
Maddow show me ONE example where she has lied, , and
Goldy show me one example where he has lied.
WAKE UP .. smell what patriotism means. YOU may not like it when the veins in Olbermann’s neck swell, Maddow gets snarky, or Goldy rings you bell .. but all three of these folks, as far as I know, always tell the truth.
I thought “Thou shall not lie” ranked pretty high there for fpls who clim to be Christians. Not for you?
Re 87
Yes yes yes.
We’ve heard this before. There are often very good reasons for voting against a bill whose basic purpose you may support. Amendments and riders may be unpalatable, or at counter purposes to the bill itself. In this case a procedural measure introduced by the dems required a 2/3 vote for passage. Why, with a bill whose passage on bipartisan lines was all but assured? Well, so they could blame the Republicans for obstructionism.
Pelosi is playing games with procedure, true to her form, for partisan gain. She did this with health care, sorry, welfare for insurance companies. She does this all day, every day. For her and for some of her Republican opponents this is an elaborate chess game, and if the pawns that are Americans are hurt in her lunge for power, so be it.
@81 LSIB
Grammar aside, I just do not get it. When did the twin towers become CHRISTIAN ?
To tell YOU the truth, YOUR behavior OFFENDS me and, as an American.
Seems to me you guys need your own kennel.
lost @ 82
I don’t think political opponents are evil. I think that most Republicans, in their own minds, believe that they have our nation’s best interests in mind. I believe they are mistaken, but I’m not going to fault their intentions. Demonizing opponents is not a terribly wise strategy for a nation that must live together. As much as I’d like all Rs to move to Oklahoma and Texas so they can have their little nation, that’s not going to happen. We have to put up with each other, and, like living with anyone, that requires some effort to try to figure out who it is you’re living with.
That said, equating Limbaugh and Beck to Olberman and Maddow (and certainly not Goldy) is misguided. Our folks whom you’ve named might be highly partisan, but they don’t lie. Maddow is a Ph.D. who gives responsible analysis to the issues she addresses. She is not simply an entertainer, like Beck and Limbaugh. She is not simply throwing red meat to those who only eat red meat. And, look at Goldy’s post about McKenna. That is journalism. McKenna is quoted. Nothing is being made up. As a practicing attorney, I have to say that I would not want to be in McKenna’s position on the DNR issue. He seems to be promoting his own position, not that of his client. On the the other hand, the MSM is ignoring the story and the state bar never goes after attorneys who are prominent, so Robbie will probably get away with it.
With regard to the Islamic information center issue, I can’t believe the airwaves are so full of it. So, however, it goes. I think you are correct in saying to fellow conservatives–hey, if they’ve got the land and permits, then who are we to suggest they shouldn’t go for it. I think you’re wrong to say it’s tactless. As a good Christian, I’m always for healing between people. I think the goal of those pursuing this project is about healing. It’s not about a stick in the eye.
Ya know what SJ? The tragedy is Goldy is capable of better. His postings on McKenna and Goldmark show good analysis and good research to support it. I can disagree with a mans’ politics, while admiring his motivations and sincerity.
But telling America to fuck off? This wasn’t an inadvertency. Goldy knows he is in the minority, that most Americans are far to the right of his politics. So he tells everyone who disagrees with him to fuck off. Classic adolescent behavior, which is pretty sad in his case given his age. In his last posting on McKenna the post title is not supported by the content, just as yellow journalists do with newspapers. Get people to believe one thing in the title, and they will ignore the contradictory evidence in the body of the piece.
Maddow is an entertainer, not a journalist by any rational measure, who tailors and cherrypicks her facts to support her position. This kind of lie, one by ommision, is often the most persuasive, as it seems so near truth.
Ditto Olberman, without the respect for basic intelligence I’d give Maddow.
@ lostinaseaofblue
Mirroring YOUR owrds ..
If what you’re asking is whether I have proof that Christian people are tactless etc, I do.
Do you want ‘proof’ that Christians are tactless tell me about the US general who sent baptismal fonts into Iraq or the Christina President who refered to his war as a “Crusade.”
Tell me about your own behavior, criticising other Americans who want to build a large Islamic center and mosque a couple of blocks from where Islamic terrorists destroyed a landmark building, killing 3000 people?
No, I don’t have that proof either. I don’t have proof that it’s tactless to insist that MY children join YOURS in Christian prayers or when your emissaries come to MY door to ctiticize MT religion.
As for having ” proof that it’s tactless to invite the stripper from the bachelor party to the wedding” .. howsabout being upset that devout Muslims want to build the equivalent of a YMCA 9on a street that is now mainly filled with porn shops and burlesque theaters.
To rational people all these are pretty obvious.
Yep!
Re 93
With respect Proud, I addressed much of what you say in a response to SJ at 94.
All Goldy shows for certain is-
A possible rift in the AG’s office, where the assistant is at odds with her boss.
A possible miscommunication where an email didn’t get channeled to McKenna. Why, BTW, would this woman not have sent this email to McKenna, if she is so concerned?
McKenna possibly acting outside of his authority, but hardly involved in an evil scheme to discredit Goldmark. At least not on the evidence presented.
In any case this will soon be resolved by the courts, which is kind of why we have them, isn’t it?
94. lostinaseaofblue spews:
Saying this is 100% different than accusing him of lying. As for whether Goldy, a local commentator on a blog has good manners, maybe that is “zlassic adolescent behavior” … so what do you say when Gingrich, Hannity, Palin, et al do much worse???
Or .. do YOUR 10 commandments have an amendment that adds use of obscenities to the do nots along with do not lie?
Show me.
Show me.
Then tell me how is it you can ignore the out and out lies Hannity told about ACORN.
Re 92
Admittedly poor writing gave rise to your justifiable critique.
I didn’t intend to link the twin towers to Christianity in any way.
What I was trying to say, poorly I’m afraid, was two things. That it is tactless to provide reasons for division and fear in a country already full of both.
And that it is tactless to build a mosque named Cordova (as bad as Bushs admittedly stupid gaff about the Crusades) near a site bombed by Islamic Terrorists. This shows a lack of respect for their adopted country irrespective of religion.
Having said that, I don’t recall insisting your children join my in prayer anywhere.
You have the right to turn salesmen of religion or vacuum cleaners away from your door. I confess I don’t see the compulsion there.
Sorry SJ,
As much as I’d enjoy trading commentary, my kids birthday is a bit more important to me. Have a nice evening.
LSIB
Happy Birthday to your kid.
When you get back to the fray ..
1. I never said that you insisted on my kids joining yours in prayer … but the SPS did just that to my daughter when she was in elementary school.
2, You, not I, were talking about whether the Muslims were tactless of wanting to build the Cordoba Islamic Center. Perhaps they were, what does that say about missionaries who accost me in my own home?
BTW, as far as I can tell there was NO effort by the Islamic community to portray this Center as a gesture of Islamic victory. The only folks I have heard making THAT claim is you guys!
Who is creating divisions?
NOW, if the Cordoba Center is moved or not built, do YOU guys get to declare victory?
3. When you have time, please tell me how the fuck you justify putting Goldy’s use of four letter words, or Maddow’s and Olbermann’s styles, on a par with the violations of the 10 commandments prohibitions against false witness?
BTW. did YOU lie when you accused THEM of lying?
If I may be excused an epithet of my own, “How Christian of you!”
Forgive me for not being willing to wade through all of the above, but could those opposed to the project answer a few questions:
Since this is a transaction where a private property owner agreed to a proposed use for his property, what other private property rights should be subject to whims of public opinion?
What other religions should have their projects be subject to the same?
This project is not on the former WTC property. How far into Manhattan do you assert the public’s “right” to dictate land use?
Are there other areas where you support the public’s “right” to dictate private land use?
@93.
goldy doesnt lie? really?
lies of omission(a goldy specialty that he, in his own hypocritical way, uses very often), stretching the truth, outright falsehoods, twisting of facts, etc…
Goebbels indeed!
@88, I should have been much more specific:
You really think the Cordoba House is intended to increase misunderstandings and division?
@ 102 liar liar pants on fire spews:
So Goldy lies? Show us all an example.
Don’t stretch to far, I would not want you to hurt yourself.
@101 k on 08/16/2010 at 7:17 pm,
I’m sorry. Are you looking for some sort of rational argument from the crowd that a year ago was up in arms over the unconstitutionality of publicly run health care and the creation of “death panels”?
All WINGNUTS know that appeals for logical dialog are merely an Alinsky trick to bring about socialism, where the unwashed people will deprive citizens of their constitutional rights, and . . er ah… AKORN!
@104
example of lie of omission – just for you SJ.
easy example today in the Auburn thread. Goldy attempts to throw Dino under the bus because he was at the parade also attended by a couple of dixie flag wavers.
Goldy’s mission: discredit Dino for being at the parade.
What goldy left out: Susanne Delbene and other democrat politicians were also at the same parade, yet goldy somehow failed to mention that.
conclusion: lie of omission, which is goldy’s favorite tactic
Grade: I give goldy a Goebbels Grade of C- for the propaganda he tried.
@104
and I never get hurt….blessed with being athletic and active…you should try it.
..wouldnt want you to get hurt-n-shit…
liar
Funny, in an ironic sort of way, that you might consider yourself the honesty police. You wouldn’t recognize the truth if it was fucking you in the ass. Which, naturally, the truth wouldn’t do because the truth wouldn’t find you attractive.
BTW, liar,
Might you be our old friend, Maxie?
@108
1. are you projecting again? I know most leftists have a hard time with reality and truth and all…but geez..
2. Max is dear friend…you could even say he is an alter ego…haha…
109: “I know most leftists have a hard time with reality and truth and all…but geez..”
I should have to pay for such amusement.
@106 Liar
Is this the best you can cook up??????
Sad!!!
@111
oh there are plenty more..
@81 “It is calculated to increase misunderstandings and division between the Islamic minority and the Christian majority in this country.”
Like you have any proof of that. Like you even give a shit about proof. Hell, it is your own statement that is “calculated” to stoke the hate. Meanwhile, would-be Republican President Gingrich ups the ante on your ass, finding equivalence in Nazis. I suppose in your mind you’re both just trying to, heh- decrease misunderstandings and division between the Islamic minority and the Christian majority in this country.
Liar
“oh there are plenty more..”
I suspect, more of the same old, same old.
Olberman did a piece. If you have not seen it, and want to you can see it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dXFo0UUACM
@115
LMFAO @ “I suspect”…….how about just admit you have no clue.
brainwashing…its whats for dinner….
@111
no shit, hell I should charge!
HEY, maybe I can get a fund drive going to help pay my bills..I heard that works real well – especially if you dont claim it on your taxes….
oops – did that hit a little close to home for someone here?
@107
Wow, that is Goldy’s glaring ‘lie of omission?’ Are you certain that Goldy even new Suzan Delbene was at the event when he wrote the piece? It seemed to me that he was talking about pictures of the event that a reader sent him.
Seriously, you equate this ‘lie of omission,’ that you cannot even be sure is a lie, to Sean Hannity verbally inflating numbers and showing the wrong video footage of a crowd to make an event seem like it was more well attended than it was?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....53447.html
If you can equate these in your mind (not to mention the Goebbel’s comparison), then I posit that you, sir, are a liar; you must lie to yourself every day.
119. masaba
liar liar pants on fire
I challenged him to find ONE example of these folks lying, his resposnse: “just admit you have no clue.”
@120
you asked for an example, and I gave it you.
goldy himself had his own spiel on “lies of omission”..funny now that he is guilty of it, everyone turns the other cheek. whatever.
goldy has been lying and twisting facts as long as HA has been around.
open your eyes and recongnize he is a partisan propagandist, ala Joseph Goebbels…there is NO difference, like it or not.
now go do yourself a favor and go get laid.
@121 liar
pretty pathetic.
Even you example does not fit the small test. A lie of omission would be one that fail to respresent some fact the exculpates Reichert. What you want is for Goldy to dis Delbene as well .. hardly the same thing.
You still have not been able to offer a single example of his or any other liberal media person lying.
Equating with Goebbels or Lenin?
Both propagandists talked about the big lie and about telling a lie well so it even when untrue the dasmage had been done ..
as in ACORN, IRAQ’s WMD, global warming scandal, ……
as for the polite suggestion to get myself fucked, thank you for the kind offer but at my age I prefer a good meal.
God said:
“These barbarians are eleven centuries behind us, and we can’t bring them up to speed – they have to do it on their own.”
What happened to the Middle East after Islam hit? The region stopped dead in its tracks and hasn’t moved forward yet.
I’m not saying that Christianity or Judaism is “just wonderful,” but ya gotta admit both gave up stoning people to death a long time ago. Islam has to change Islam, unfortunately. All we can do is wait and see what they do. Of course, we can laugh at them, too, but that’s rude!