When King County Executive Ron Sims proposed acquiring a 47-mile rail corridor from Renton to Snohomish, and converting much of it to a recreational trail, he instantly made himself a target of pro-rail activists. And yesterday’s approval of the plan by a regional advisory committee has done little to lesson the controversy.
The 24-member Puget Sound Regional Council (PSRC) rail-corridor advisory committee recommended that the corridor be converted into a trail for most of its length. The real decisions will be made by the county, but that didn’t stop about 15 protesters from standing in the rain to support keeping the railroad tracks, or committee members from arguing over the future of the corridor.
King County Executive Ron Sims wants to buy the corridor as part of a complicated land swap and convert the line to a trail within county limits and a trail-rail combo from Woodinville to Snohomish. The advisory committee, meeting in Redmond, approved the same plan, while leaving open the possibility the corridor could revert to train use in 20 to 40 years.
[…]Members of All Aboard Washington, a Seattle pro-rail group, protested that idea. They stood with signs reading “Trains are Green” and “Do the Obvious … Use These Tracks Now!” […] “Why are we the last city in the United States of America to be catching on [to rail transit]?” asked Al Runte, a group member and former Seattle mayoral candidate.
The pro-rail group wants the corridor to be converted to commuter rail now, using the existing tracks, but transit experts who have studied the route insist that it just isn’t economical. The tracks themselves have been neglected over the years and would require expensive upgrades, while current commuter patterns simply won’t support much of the route. Or at least, that’s what I’ve been privately told.
I suppose one can argue over the facts and the analysis — indeed, we should argue over them. If Al Runte can make the argument for commuter rail now, I’m all for it. But the pro-rail folks need to keep the big picture in sight, and be careful their opposition now doesn’t scuttle the hope of a commuter rail line in the future.
The deal is complicated. The corridor is owned and operated by Burlington Northern, which currently runs a few thousand containers a day a year on the line, a volume it has decided is uneconomical. Under Sims proposal, the Port of Seattle would purchase the corridor from Burlington Northern, and then swap it to King County in exchange for Boeing Field. King County would then pull up the tracks along much of the route and replace it with a trail… thus saving the corridor intact for possible conversion back to rail at some point in the future.
But if the deal falls through, Burlington Northern will sell the corridor to private developers who will subdivide the land into parcels, thus removing the corridor forever.
The important thing to remember is that one way or the other, Burlington Northern is shutting down this freight line, and there is no potential buyer on the market with a promise and a plan to keep it operating. So if pro-rail opponents manage to nix the purchase and swap agreement because they oppose the rail-to-trail proposal, they will destroy any chance of building commuter rail on the corridor in the future.
First and foremost, the Sims proposal saves the Renton to Snohomish corridor for future commuter rail use — indeed, much of the corridor is wide enough to support both rail and trail side by side, and there are engineering options available to accommodate the two uses where the corridor narrows. But one way or the other, Burlington Northern is absolutely going to shut down the line, so if the deal falls through the corridor will end up being parceled off to private developers.
So here’s my suggestion to Al and the entire pro-rail group: continue to make the argument for commuter rail now (that is, if you have a good argument to make,) but make it absolutely clear that you wholeheartedly support the county acquiring the corridor. For if, through your efforts, the deal is scuttled, the region will end up with neither rail nor trail.
Speaking of trails, Colbert accused “Mark Trail” of being a gay comic strip. I haven’t felt this betrayed since Mick Jagger and Keith Richards tongued each other on Saturday Night Live!I haven’t felt this betrayed since Pete Townsend said that he felt like a woman inside.
Meanwhile, the bicycle lobby will make sure rail will never get done.
Strike while the Iron is hot, Mr. Runte.
I don’t know about the south end of the route in question (it follows the lake shore for a way, doesn’t it?) but the part through the north side of Bellevue, Kirkland and Totem Lake wouldn’t lend itself very well to commuter rail. It’s full of twists and turns and crosses a lot of major arterials. Running anything through there at high speed would be out of the question.
On the other hand, the line that ran down the west side of the Sammamish valley from Woodinville through Redmond to Issaquah (the “Darigold gubmint cheese” route) would have been great for commuter service, considering all the development along Willows Road in the last couple decades. Unfortunately, I understand that one’s already gone.
The rail line should be used for Sounder commuter rail immediately, and the repair and upgrade work on the tracks should be started as well as construction of a bike trail where feasible.
Once the tracks are gone and the bike trail is in place, practically speaking there will never again be a rail line. Not only would cyclists protest, but the homeowners along the line (especially ones that bought in after the trains were gone) would sink any new rail use, let alone a more intense rail use than before.
The Burke-Gilman Trail was once a rail line – can you imagine, now, trying to convert it back to any kind of rail, light or heavy? Yet it parallels Highway 522/Lake City Way, one of the most congested and hard-to-fix commuter corridors.
That operating rail line, substandard though it may be, is worth billions in future rail land and construction costs through the Eastside.
Can you imagine if Union Pacific had allowed its line up the San Francisco peninsula, with many at-grade crossings and traversing wealthy residential neighborhoods (Atherton? Palo Alto?), to be converted into a bike trail? (Just suggesting – this was never proposed, AFAIK)
They would never have Caltrain today – no opportunity to put in the grade-separated crossings as well as upgraded stations and track that they have been over the past few years. In a study of Bay Area transportation options in the last ’90s, upgrades to Caltrain were by an order of magnitude the most cost-effective per additional person served – something like $100 million for thousands of new riders, vs. ferries, new BART track or any other option.
That is what we would lose.
On the Eastside, WSDOT clings to the idea of adding lanes to I-405, at a cost of billions. Has anyone priced the necessary upgrades to the rail line?
http://www.spiritofwashingtond.....upport.cfm
The future of the Spirit of Washington Dinner Train is uncertain.
Since May of 2005, King County has been in negotiations to purchase the rail corridor used by the Dinner Train from Burlington Northern Santa-Fe. King County could convert the corridor to a walking and biking trail, allow both rails and trails, or keep the railroad intact. If the county decides to remove the rails, the dinner train will no longer run.
The Spirit of Washington Dinner Train fully supports the option for rails WITH trails. But we need your help to make this possibility a reality. Contact King County Executive Ron Sims at 206-296-4040 or ron.sims@metrokc.gov TODAY and tell him you want to save the Dinner Train and encourage him to support both rails and trails.
HELP SAVE THE DINNER TRAIN
The Dinner Train is a unique community asset. Operating since 1992 the Dinner train provides 80 full-time jobs to the area and generates a $140 million impact on the economy. Over 1.3 million people have ridden the Dinner Train since its inception. Additionally, local charities have been the beneficiary of over $750,000 in donations from the Dinner Train.
Currently, King County is in negotiations with Burlington Northern Santa Fe to purchase the 47-mile rail corridor used by the Dinner Train. The corridor extends from Renton to Snohomish. If King County purchases the corridor, three things could happen:
Everything could stay as is and current customers using the rail line, including the Dinner Train, could continue operations.
King County could “abandon” the line and convert the corridor to a regional trail, this is commonly known as “Rails to Trails”.
The County could build a regional trail alongside the rail line, allowing multiple uses of the corridor and preserving the rail line not only for the Dinner Train and other customers, but for future transportation uses.
We believe “Rails WITH Trails” is the best option for King County. The corridor is wide enough to support both rails and trails and similar projects have been successful in other communities across the country.
Check back with us as we continue to expand our website with additional information on the issue or email us at customerservice@swdtrain.com or 1-800-876-RAIL (1-800-876-7245) with any questions.
~~
http://www.spiritofwashingtond....._press.cfm
RECENT PRESS STORIES
Seattle PI story, February 24, 2006
“Spirit of Washington owners fight to save the rails — and their dinner train”
Seattle Weekly story, February 22, 2006
“All Aboard: Spirit of Washington Dinner Train says trails shouldn’t displace rails”
Seattle Times story, February 17, 2006
“Dinner train seeks fans’ support”
King County Journal story, February 16, 2006
“Dinner train supporters launch campaign to save it”
Seattle Times story, August 30, 2005
“County Council Dishes up Support for Keeping
Dinner Train on Track”
Seattle PI Story, June 22, 2005
“Let’s Have Both Rails and Trails, Patterson Urges”
Seattle Times column by James Veseley, June 19, 2005
Seattle PI story, May 18, 2005
“Federal Lawyer Says Saving Dinner Train May be Possible”
Seattle Times story, May 17, 2005
“Put Brakes on Rail-to-Trail Plan, Some Say”
~~
http://www.king5.com/business/.....ad0b6.html
Spirit of Washington Dinner Train to end in July
06:33 PM PST on Thursday, January 18, 2007
Associated Press
RENTON, Wash. – After more than 15 years, the Spirit of Washington Dinner Train will make its final run on July 31.
That’s when the train’s route will be disrupted to make way for revisions to Interstate 405, causing a break in the tracks near Bellevue.
Spirit of Washington Dinner Train owner Eric Temple was hopeful that negotiations with King County and Snohomish County would yield a solution for relocating the train’s route. But Temple says none of those options made any headway.
During the past 15 years, the train has served 1.4 million guests.
~~
http://www.komotv.com/news/local/5239336.html
Spirit of Washington Dinner Train announces end of the run
By KOMO StaffRENTON – A longtime Puget Sound area icon is about to chug off into the sunset.
After more than 15 years, the Spirit of Washington Dinner Train has announced the train’s final run that will take place on July 31, 2007.
That’s when the train’s route will be disrupted to make way for revisions to I-405, causing a break in the tracks near Bellevue.
Spirit of Washington Dinner Train owner Eric Temple had been hopeful that negotiations with Snohomish County and King County would yield a solution for relocating the train’s route.
Options included moving the train’s origin to Bellevue and traveling north to Woodinville or creating a route that would run from Woodinville with the city of Snohomish as a destination.
But Temple says none of those options made any headway.
“When the possibility of closure was announced in September… we were hopeful that additional options would be made available in order to save the Dinner Train,” he said in a press release. “To date, we have no ongoing negotiations with any of these potential partners — at this point we have resigned to lose the dinner train as well as the jobs, economic impact and nostalgia associated with it.”
The train has served 1.4 million guests over the past 15 years, including 600,000 from out of state.
Temple says the train has also brought $140 million into local and state economies, supplied 80 full-time jobs to King County residents, made more than $1 million in charitable contributions, and invested $1.5 million into property enhancements.
Nice work, Ron
Monorail.
Seriously.
A monorail with a bike path underneath.
Put a monorail between Renton and Kirkland. It’ll look cool shooting alongside the lake. It’ll have frequent stops, so it can serve local commuters going to Boeing. It doesn’t have the same sort of speed requirements as a commuter rail because it’s more of a trolley than a train. The point is not to get from Renton to Kirkland, but from where you live to where you work, and riding the monorail would be more pleasant and economical than driving.
Between Kirkland and Woodinville, we have a trail. Or we just let it sit and sell it off to developers to raise funds. Locals will fight the rail line anyway. They’ll probably fight a bike path.
Between Woodinville and Snohomish, a commuter train, with an eye towards opening up the Skykomish watershed/US 2 region. That is, a triangle line between Woodinville, Snohomish, and Monroe. The rail lines already exist; we just need to decide it’s important. Going only to Snohomish won’t make that much of a dent in the real problem.
It must suck to live in the state of Washington.
Auntie- are you suggesting massive government subsidies to support a private business, the Dinner Train? I’ve done the train a few times. It’s very nice. But is does not support the rail corridor.
I bet you’re dead set against government subsidies to the Sonics, and rant against the Mariners deal. Why would government money to support the train be any different?
@8 Better than being an innocent detainee in Gitmo or Dallas. http://tinyurl.com/2r9oqo
@9 Because he wants everything HE enjoys subsidized by someone else! What else? He’s a Republican, isn’t he?
I see in this morning’s news that Seattle City Council cobbled together an advisory vote on “Tunnel Lite,” but the state is washing its hands of the unvetted proposal. The advisory vote will ask city voters whether they prefer an elevated structure or a 4-lane tunnel costing only $600 million more.
I can already see where this is going … city voters approve a car tab tax to pay for a $600 million tunnel option. The city council appoints three tunnel supporters to a board, and those three appoint the rest of the board. The board hires Joel Horn as executive director. They begin raising funds from the car tax, but the money comes in slower than expected because thousands of city residents register their cars to rented post office boxes outside the city limits. After property has been acquired and a billion dollars or so has been spent, the public is told the tunnel will actually cost $11 billion after figuring in interest payments, not the $600 million voters were told. Several more advisory votes are put on the ballot, and in the end … pfffft!!! Nothing is built.
And 15 years from now, when the viaduct collapses in a heap of concrete dust, maps will be redrawn with a pink line denoting an imaginery travel corridor where SR-99 used to be, and they will call it the Seattle Way …
K 9 – Don’t be an idiot. Money given to the sonics is an “investment”. Owners say the building could be used for DNC convention or maybe even the grammies. It actually won’t cost anything over all. It will generate FAR more money than it costs. That’s what an investment is dumshit.
Geez, and there are people who actually think like this. Watch it happen…
K – where does it say the Dinner Train expects subsidies from anyone?
“The County could build a regional trail alongside the rail line, allowing multiple uses of the corridor and preserving the rail line not only for the Dinner Train and other customers, but for future transportation uses.
We believe “Rails WITH Trails” is the best option for King County. The corridor is wide enough to support both rails and trails and similar projects have been successful in other communities across the country.”
They have a successful, legitimate business that is being forced out of business by the morons in king rons world. I don’t support sports subsidies nor do I support sacrificing a successful business and the resultant taxes, tourist draw and generosity for “trails”.
TruthProbe – it absolutely sucks to live in the formerly great state, now SSW (Socialist Society of WA)… just say WAHHHHHH.
@13 Hey Reddick! I bought more OIL STOCK this week, so keep pouring my gas into your Hummer! Thanks, I appreciate your business.
P.S., pay your debt to Goldy, welsher!
Rabbit 12 – Don’t forget Cindy Laws. She’s another fucking idiot parasite cut from the same cloth as Joel Horn.
@13 (continued) If you want to give Roger Rabbit a Hummer, call 1-800-SUCK-ROG for a good time!
Today is a great day for Republicans. We are now guaranteed to hold the white house 2008 – 2016.
The Smartest Woman In The World announced she gonna go for it. You go grrrlll !!!!!!!!! She will easily win the nomination and lose by a fucking landslide because she is the most divisive figure in the history of american politics. She has no chance at all in a general. She will win zero states.
Keep the dinner train. . . sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too. A rail line and a trail . . . with a salute to aesthetics, culture and business as well. Why not?
Get your heads out of party politics and use some thoughtful judgment here.
There are examples of trails and rails co-existing. North of Myrtle Edwards park their is a trail that is close to a rail line. Also in Ballard, the Ballard Terminal Railroad has some trackage paralleling the Burke-Gillman Trail. I also read in a TRAINS Magazine article about a proposed Rail to Trail in Appalachia, and they showed an example of a trail in Deleware. A few feet next to the trail is a multi-track rail line where Passenger Trains run by at speeds in excess of 100MPH! The track? Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor.
Now there should be aquistion of the corridor first, then work on integrating a trail in there. I have heard suggestions before that they should go Light Rail in the corridor. I would go for commuter rail because of the possible Freight Rail bypass(if the tracks are upgraded), as well as adding Commuter Rail. If one wants the DInner Train preserved, then you would have to go for COmmuter Rail, as the FRA has strict rules on train seperation. This is not Europe where Light Rail could be in the same corridor with heavier trains, with no problems. Although for those that love the Dinner Train, the equipment is getting old. Some of the newest cars on the trains are the “City of Renton” Super Dome(which by the way, may have ran through the city on a regular basis up until 1961 on the Milwaukee Road’s Olympian Hiawatha as it made it’s run through Maple Valley and then on to Snoqualmie Pass, which by the way, is now a trail), and the Locomotives. The rest of the cars were built in the 1930s, and 1940s. Not to say that keeping old rolling stock in working order is not impossible, ask VIA Rail Canada about that. THe equipment used on The Canadian(which leaves Pacific Central Station in Vancouver 3 days a week for a 72 hour run to Toronto), is 50 years old, and impeccably maintained.(In almost all of the sleepers, they even have a few classic open section accomodations)
Now one thing I have been worried about, is the alterior motive BNSF has to join King County in their trail building excersise. Could they be trying to limit rail competition? BNSF might be worried about UNION PACIFIC or CANADIAN PACIFIC getting access to the line if it was operated as an upgraded railroad. If that is true, BNSF Is forgetting something, and that is who owns the track North of Everett. They do.
Each Month, in the Railroad News of Photos section of Trains Magazine, they have a small list of Abandonments and Acquisitions and this month they included the Palosue River and Coulee City RR, and the recent aquistiion of it’s remaining 100 miles between Cheney and Coulee CIty. The buyer, WSDOT, which has already bought the Cheney/Spokane-Pullman portion of the line. What does WSDOT plan to do, railbank it for future use, which should be what is done with Eastside Line, only the rails should not be removed but upgraded.
Goldy: Yes, yes, yes, amen. Why do so few people perceive this problem? If the corridor is abandoned by BNSF there is NO WAY AT ALL it will EVER be reconstructed later as a right of way for anything.
I also think bikers would support rail-with-trail quite readily. There are examples all over the place–e.g. the Springwater Corridor in Portland; there is going to be a bike path by the new light rail tracks in Sodo. Bikers just want options. They aren’t reflexively against other forms of transit (like so many of the other posters here). If the only choices were 1) rail line and bike path or 2) neither, I guarantee you every biker will be enthusiastically lined up behind 1. Rail advocates, get with it.
Re: #3 above, AF, that rail line is now mostly the Sammamish Valley Trail. I disagree that it would be much of a commuter route, but at least it still exists.
Re #6 (Anti-Liberal), does anyone else think this “$140 million into the local economy” from the dinner train sounds a lot like what the Sonics claim? Are we to believe that people are flying in from California to take the dinner train? Just because it makes $140 million in gross revenue (if that’s true) doesn’t mean it’s all a net addition to the economy. Likely, most of that figure is funds that otherwise would have been spent on other entertainment options–movie tickets, Sonics tickets, restaurants, etc.–that are ALSO in the Puget Sound area.
Posted 10/3/2004 11:00 PM
Troops in survey back Bush 4-to-1 over Kerry
By Dave Moniz, USA TODAY
An unscientific survey of U.S. military personnel shows they support President Bush for re-election by a 4-to-1 ratio. Two-thirds of those responding said John Kerry’s anti-war activities after he returned from Vietnam make them less likely to vote for him.
This poll hasnt change much since 2004, in fact if anything the military is probably more republican. Remember dems, ex convicts and dead people good, military bad.
Auntie- did you read Goldie’s original post? If the rail line made sense economically, BNSF would not have deferred maintenance and would not be abandoning it. Regardless of what Sims does the line will be abandoned unless some sugar daddy comes along to pay the upgrades and BTW pay the expenses associated with the I-405 project which will take out the Wilberton overpass. If the train can make it and carry the expenses of the line, they have my full support. If you can explain how to make the rail line make sense with the D-train and limited freight, I’d love to hear it and could be convinced.
But just because Ron Sims is involved doe not make it a bad idea. Try a bit of objective thought instead of reflexive attack.
Ah, Death to Democrats got caught lying in an earlier thread, and isn’t smart enough to realize that the same fellow that caught him lying before might read more than one thread.
From the Military Times (publishers of Army Times, the folks that did the earlier poll)
Ref: http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006_main.php
Dead as a Doorknob, if you’re going to lie, do it somewhere that people won’t check your “facts”. Might I suggest (un)SoundPolitics?
For the first time, more troops disapprove of the president’s han dling of the war than approve of it. Barely one-third of service members approve of the way the president is handling the war, according to the 2006 Military Times Poll.”
Ref: http://www.militarycity.com/po lls/2006_main.php
Dead as a Doorknob, if you’re going to lie, do it somewhere that people won’t check your “facts”. Might I suggest (un)SoundPolitics?
01/20/2007 at 3:36 pm
Disapproving of the war doesnt mean they dont support the president numbnuts. God you liberals are so out of touch. The type that serve in the military are not of the liberal ilk and are mostly repulsed by democrats. Yeah there are a few exceptions, but the rule still stands.
They are required to “support” their Commander in Chief. Good grief, your brain is as dead as your name.
@ 26
Maybe Supporting doesn’t represent a vote.
Maybe, just maybe the WAR isnt the only issue that these people use to decide their vote.
deadly to Democracy:
Reading comprehension is, apparently, not your strong suit.
Please, carefully read the last paragraph of my friend, John Barelli’s post:
The last paragraph clearly states that MORE TROOPS DISAPROVE OF THE PRESIDENT’S HANDLING OF THE WAR THAN APPROVE IT. This means that they disapprove of the president’s decisions. They disapprove. Color it any which way you choose. His approval numbers in the rank and file military are in the tank.
I can tell you when this happens, the troops are not supporting the president. At this time they are doing their duty. The duty they swore to when they enlisted. In an all volunteer force. Now, they are questioning the Commander in Chief.
This does not bode well for morale or for keeping the military staffed with qualified young men and women. When potential recruits see and hear that the presently serving soldiers are unhappy, for whatever reason, they hesitate. My guess is that soon, within 2 years, we will have some form of draft. What will that do to the morale of our Armed Services… when a young person is forced to serve, in war time, in a war they don’t believe is legitimate, in a country they don’t believe wants us there? Well we will find out, wait, we already have.
Viet Nam
Now, John won’t use this kind of statement but I will:
You are the most ignorant, unintelligent motherfucker currently posting on HA>
War Is Good For Demagogues: Invest Your Son
Another 20 Americans were killed in Iraq today, leaving behind 20 sets of grieving families and friends — all of whom now have an emotional investment in Bush’s military misadventure.
Unfortunately, human psychology works in favor of warmongers, creating an impetus to throw away more lives on lost causes. Every time another life is lost, it becomes that much harder to walk away from a bad or hopeless cause — because if you do, those lives were lost for nothing.
But history teaches us that pouring more human blood down a rathole never changes the outcome. Of all the things that determine who wins or loses a conflict, sacrifice is NOT one of them. To paraphrase Patton, dying for your country simply makes you one of the “poor bastards.” British military strategist and historian Sir Basil Liddell-Hart long ago identified the key determinant of victory or defeat as good generalship. Unfortunately, he wrote in so many words, the best efforts (and bloody sacrifices) of soldiers count for little or naught if competent leadership is lacking.
Back home, far removed from the battlefield carnage, politicians thump their chests and declare how brave the soldiers were. Then they reach deep into the well of patriotism — and ask us to sacrifice still more sons. Endlessly.
Against that kind of demagoguery, peace and reason just don’t have a chance. That’s why the slaughter in the trenches of 1914-1918 went on so long. That’s why the Hundred Years War lasted 116 years. That’s why medieval knights threw Crusade after Crusade against the walls of middle eastern shiekdoms. That’s why … well, that’s why a lot of stupid, bloody things.
You humans sure have strange ways.
@16 There isn’t enough space here to list all of the world’s fucking idiots, but your name is sure to be included in any abbreviated list! Pay your gambling debt, welsher.
Roger @ 29:
This is your finest work.
Well said.
Bravo!
@18 How to break this gently? Probably best to give the news to Redneck straight. Here goes:
You Republicans have fucked up so badly, ANY Democrat will beat ANY Republican in ’08. So try these on for size:
President Hillary Clinton
President Barack Obama
President Ron Sims
President Roger Rabbit
President _______________ (fill in blank)
29
Here are two bunches of virtual carrots for you!!!
Enjoy
Hey Goldy – Are you getting ready to go to work for the mormons tonight?
Maybe you can launch an investigation as to what “Joe Smith” did with those golden tablets. I’m real suspicious…
@20 “A few feet next to the trail is a multi-track rail line where Passenger Trains run by at speeds in excess of 100MPH! The track? Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor.”
Is that a good idea? For starters, you’ll need a very substantial (and rather expensive) barrier to keep people off the tracks. And I don’t know how much I would like to be that close to a train blowing by at high speed. Suction … noise … diesel smoke … a jogging path next to a train track is hardly the most aesthetic place to put a jogging path.
Hey Goldy – You gonna get a bumper sticker for your volvo that say “My boss is a guy named Joe Smith”???
@22 “This poll hasnt change much since 2004, in fact if anything the military is probably more republican.”
Where do you get this nonsense? I saw a poll last week that indicates these figures have nearly reversed, and Bush is now supported by well under half the troops.
skagit says:
They are required to “support” their Commander in Chief. Good grief, your brain is as dead as your name.
01/20/2007 at 4:08 pm
In this context support mean votes dumbass.
Hey, Mark, notice you’re being ignored. Back to the basement with you . . . your Lionel needs your fine engineering. Choo-choo, choo-choo. . .
Roger @ 29: I also want to compliment you. I’ve learned to admire such a sophisticated and well-informed rabbit.
Ask Bill Clinton how the troops supported him when he gave speeches at military bases. There is more enthusiasm at funerals. Of course you dems do like giving speeches at funerals. hehehe
@22 JAWPBOHA*
* Just Another Wingnut Pulling Bullshit Out of His Ass
Meanwhile, a new poll shows McCain’s support in New Hampshire “tanking.”
“Pandering and Support for Iraq War Escalation Take Their Toll
“WASHINGTON, Jan. 19 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — In his attempts to make inroads with far right conservatives who don’t trust him, John McCain has forfeited much needed support among moderates and independents, without
whom his electoral prospects will surely fade.
“After two thirds of Iowa GOP County Chairs expressed ‘disdain for his politics’ last week, the Executive Director of the South Carolina Senate
Republican Caucus acknowledged this week that ‘we’re programmed to hate McCain,’ and conservative leader James Dobson added that he prays they ‘don’t get stuck with him.’
“On Thursday, McCain gave in and voted to kill
grassroots lobbying campaign finance reform he had sponsored in the last Congress but which Dobson and other conservatives strongly opposed. [The Hill, 1/18/2007; Roll Call, 1/10/07; Worldnetdaily.com, 1/13/07; AP, 1/17/07; The State, Op-Ed, 1/14/07; AP, 12/20/06; washingtonpost.com, The
Fix, 1/16/07]
“The pandering has taken its toll. An ARG poll in New Hampshire found that McCain has lost a whopping 20 points among independent voters. ARG President Dick Bennett noted that a similar trend exists throughout other early primary states, asserting that ‘McCain is tanking.’ On the same day,
the Los Angeles Times found that the Bush-McCain strategy to send more U.S. troops to Iraq has also cost him dearly, with 42 percent of all respondents and 43 percent of independents saying they would be less likely to support
McCain as a result. [Boston Herald, 1/18/07; LA Times/Bloomberg poll, 1/18/2007]
“‘McCain’s do-anything-to-win approach to the 2008 primaries has made him un-electable,’ said Democratic National Committee spokesman Luis Miranda. ‘Conservatives don’t trust him and the Bush-McCain troop escalation in Iraq has put him squarely in opposition to independents and
the majority of the American people.'”
Quoted under Fair Use; for complete news release see http://tinyurl.com/2luseh
I hafta leave now cuz it’s Mrs. Rabbit’s turn on the pooter. Later, trollfucks!
@41 See #29.
Skagit@39 Mark the Retarded Redneck’s train actually has a name. . . .it’s Thomas.
Death to Democracy at too many to mention:
Dickwad,
As a member of the military, I attended more than one of Bill Clinton’s speeches. I can tell you that his reception was warm, inviting and welcome. He was, and is, a powerful figure. He commands respect in any room he is in.
I also attended Bush functions. I can tell you the response was muted. I can tell you the cheers for the military comments he made were genuine. We always support postive remarks. However, he did not command respect. He did not possess the aura of authority that President Clinton does. When he left, the commentary I heard from conservatives and liberals, was that he comes off as whimpy. He does not carry himself well at all.
Having shook hands with both men, and I believe that a man’s handshake is a tell, Clinton’s is firm and sure. Bush’s, well, not so much. He places his hand in yours. No grip. No confidence.
But you go on ranting and raving about what you have no knowledge about. Mr. Barelli stood up today and gave you his qualifications. He knows what I know.
Your are full of shit. You have no class and I suspect you are just another name for MTR, Pussypud and LSoS.
That being the case, you won’t be goading me into any further discussion.
What a fucktard.
HOW DO YOU KEEP SKAGIT AND ROGER RABBIT BUSY FOR EIGHT HOURS WELL YOU PUT THEM IN A BARREL AND TELL THEM TO SHIT IN A CORNER.
I’m perplexed. How did the BNSF Eastside rail corridor end up in Iraq?
At the risk of interjecting some logic to the discussion, along with answering a few of the questions stated above.
Between 1999 and 2001 the municipalities involved studied the corridor resulting in 4 options:
1 – 3 GP lanes each direction (no transit improvements)
2 – 2 GP lanes each direction with “BRT” service
3 – 1 GP lane each direction & Light Rail
4 – Light Rail only.
Year 2000 budget costs as follows:
1 – $11.5 Billion
2 – $8.7 Billion
3 – $7.6 Billion
4 – &4.5 Billion
When each of these was run through a cost/benefit analysis #4 had a dismal return because the horizon year for the C/B was 2030. Light Rail (at that cost) would pay back later.
#3 & #1 had about the same C/B ratio, but were negative. The issue again, both solved the problems, but their payback was beyond the horizon year.
#2, the one that is being worked on now, had a positive C/B ratio. However, around 2025, the congestion improvements will start to deteriorate.
@50 Injecting facts and figures in to this discussion? Shocked, I tell you, I’m positive shocked!
(continued)
During the process, the BNSF line was not run through the C/B analysis, after preliminary ridership analysis showed that there could be up to 3100 riders per day with a direct connection to what is now the Sounder service.
This was because the City of Renton and the Kennydale Neighborhood Association send a letter to the Executive committee objecting to the study of this rail line as a transportation corridor.
No further cost analysis was performed.
YO @ 48 . . . wtf? And quit shouting.
35
In the case of that Deleware line, fast trains have been in that area for a long time. So far, there have been no accidents, and there was a fence in the picture. Also, they do need warning signs. Those trains are almost quiet, powered by pure Electric Locomotives, not Diesel-Electric.
The line on the Eastside is 100ft wide in some areas, so a trail, and a single-or double-tracked commuter rail line going 60-70 MPH might work. Still, we need to preserve the corridor in the meantime. If we lose it, it will cost more to bring it back. We learned how hard it is already. In 1939 the last Interurban ran between Seattle and Everett, now it is costing us billions to bring back it’s modern incarnation.(Light Rail is an evolved Streetcar operation in dedicated right of way).
I-405 @ 52,
This proves my point @ 4-5 above.
NIMBYism snuffed the idea of Eastside commuter rail in its infancy, before any actual studying was done. And that was _with_ some trains still running on that line.
3100 per day isn’t a huge number, but I’m guess that that was probably assuming no more than 2-3 trains per day if it was based on initial Seattle-bound Sounder service. I’m sure ridership would grow from there, as 405 becomes more congested and people have an actual option. Caltrain carries hundreds of people per train up and down the SF Peninsula, 2 trains/hour at commute times.
If those tracks are completely pulled up for a trail, they’re never going back in in our lifetimes, in any form.
I found this article on a rail site I look at from time to time. On the Arizona Rail Passenger Association there was a story about Governor Napolitano’s Executive Order giving ADOT 90 days to update rail plans and give ideas on which projects should be a priority and find the best funding. THe article was from the Arizona Republic, and one interesting fact, was that it might be a little hard, because there is no redundant lines in the area around Pheonix. There is the Pheonix West Line, which they had to fight to preserve 10 years ago when the Sunset Limited was re-routed away from Pheonix by Amtrak. That could be one reason to preserve the Eastside Corridor.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/.....l0119.html
10 years ago, if somebody said that there would be at least one Light or Commuter Rail system in the majority of the West Coast States by 2010, people would have been laughing. Well, today there is the 4 Commuter Rail systems in California, 5 Light Rail Systems(plus BART) in California, Rail Runner in Albuquerque, SOUNDER in Seattle, MAX in Portland with Washington County Commuter Rail due to start in 2008, TRAX Light Rail in Salt Lake City with 4 extensions recently approved and Front Runner Commuter Rail due to start in 2008, Light Rail in Denver.
The Arizona Proposal would be for Coummuter Rail between Phoenix and Tuscon by Arizona’s Centenial in 2012, 4 years after the first ValleyMetro LRT line starts in Pheonix.
RailRunner in New Mexico is something that Gov. Bill Richardson has been pushing, and they also had a situation almost similar to our Eastside line. BNSF had a problem, the original route of the Super Chief, via Raton and Glorieta Pass, going through Albequerque to Kansas, via Southern Colorado had too many heavy grade and most frieght runs via the Southern Transcon route that moves through Clovis, New Mexico, and then up via Amarillo, Texas and Oklahoma. By the turn of the 21st Century, the only traffic running over it Westbound was Amtrak’s Southwest Chief, and Eastbound it would snag a few light and fast freights if the track east of Belen, New Mexico was congested. The state of New Mexico bought the line, to preserve it for future use, but felt that maybe it would work great for connecting Albequerque with Santa Fe. RailRunner debuted in summer of 2006 with only three stations, and more under construction.
@48 “Yo” is a contraction of “yahoo” (as in “trailer park yahoo”) and is properly spelled “Y’o.” Like most wingnutz, Y’o can’t spell his own fucking name, much less catch a rabbit and put him in a barrel!
actually, rabbit, I just realized that y’o (whatever) is a little jealous. I never said I admired him . . .
@22, 38 – Hey wingnut roll THIS in a tube and shove it up your rectum:
“WASHINGTON — … For the first time, more troops disapprove of the president’s handling of the war than approve of it, according to the 2006 Military Times Poll. …
“Only 35 percent of military members polled this year said they approve of the way Bush is handling the war, and 42 percent said they disapprove … only 41 percent of the military now say the United States should have gone to war in Iraq, down from 65 percent in 2003. …
“The survey’s respondents … are on average older, more experienced, more likely to be officers and more career-oriented than the overall military population … 66 percent have deployed at least once to Iraq or Afghanistan. … The poll has come to be viewed by some as a barometer of the professional career military. …”
Quoted under Fair Use; for complete story and/or copyright info see http://tinyurl.com/yakmno
@22 (continued) Uh, let’s see, what did Numbnutz Wingnut say? Oh yeah, this:
“his poll hasnt change much since 2004, in fact if anything the military is probably more republican. Remember dems, ex convicts and dead people good, military bad.”
Looks like N.W. was blowing smoke out of his ass! Typical wingnut; peels bullshit off the wall without any research or fact-checking, and posts it on a liberal blog apparently thinking nobody will check up on him.
(snicker)
Another wingnut liar is ground to dust under Roger Rabbit’s paw! HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
#7 nails it !
Monorail & trail for bicycles, jogging & walking.
Yea, I know, it makes tooo much sense to actually do something like this so the B/C analysis must be bent to subsidize the scum developers & their friends (partners in crime) etc.
Monorail & trail IS the answer (as long as you don`t allow the rats into the process).
Monorail? That’s got to be the worst idea, definitely a non-starter.
For all its problems, the rail already exists on the ground in a serviceable form. It might need upgrading, but expensive capital pieces like the grade, the roadbed, not to mention numerous trestles and overpasses already exist. Anyone want to guess what a monorail bridge at Coal Creek might cost?
I am in favor of light rail in that corridor if it’s cost effective. There is no way in hell if the steel is pulled up it’s ever going down again. That corridor passes through hugely expensive real estate in places like Kirkland, Bellevue, etc. As was mentioned, imagine re-reiling the Burke-Gilman. Ain’t ever, ever gonna happen. That’s the fallacy of these “rail banking” projects. I support their conversion to trails if nothing else, but just keep in mind once the trains are gone from a line, they’ll never come back.
That’s no big loss if they can’t pull their weight, I guess, but it’s definitely dreaming to imagine you could put in a trail and then in 2030 put rail back in.
Re #62, here’s a list of railbanked corridors that were restored to rail service.
http://www.americantrails.org/.....ail04.html
Re #21, Snoqualmie Valley Trail, not Sammamish Valley Trail. Sorry.
I know when ST did planning for the Eastside, they concidered Monorail in a few areas, and they all got a very bad rating, cost was one of them. A few years ago, the PanAm Railways(Guilford Rail Systems bought the rights to Pan Am recently) had a big fight with Amtrak, New Hampshire, Maine, and Massachussetts over restoring Passenger Rail service between Boston and Portland, Maine. The argument? PanAm Railways wanted even heavier rail than 1301b to the yard rail for trains to be able to go 79MPH. They compromised Maine got their first passenger trains in 10-40 years(depending on if you count VIA Rail’s Atlantic which was cut in 1993 that skirted across the Northern part of the State, or the last pre-Amtrak Passenger Trains to serve Maine).
Some branch lines do not have the current heavier rails to handle even the heaviest frieght cars. The standard right now for a boxcar and covered hopper is 286,0001bs, and there is suggestions they could get heavier. Some branch lines have rails that are 901b. At least with the Eastside Line we would have the roadbed and other infrastructures, would just need new rail, new ties(timber-creosote or concrete, although Plastic is getting some work these days). A better signal system would work better than Track Warrant Control or Direct Traffic Control(the old train order system only sent by radio now).
Interesting examples of places where they abandoned rail corridors due to the fact that it would not get enough commuters. THis was in Philadelphia with SEPTA. Although one good thing they did was connect the two disconnected Regional Rail networks, which were built by different railroads. It required a tunnel under Downtown Philadelphia, so that could be why SEPTA insists on Electric Propulsion.
http://www.pennlive.com/search.....038;coll=1
Although one route in Philadelphia was considered for re-activation of commuter service, it was the costs of electrifying that did it in, as SEPTA would not aquire diesels. In the Sixties, the Reading was going to abandon the Fox Chase Branch, but the City of Philadelphia managed to get them to give it a second look. Turned out it was a rare branch line with no drain on ridership. It was electrified, and a 1300 percent increase in ridership.
http://www.lightrailnow.org/fe.....06-03a.htm
oscar, thanks for the list. Interesting how if rails are resotred, the new user would have to get permission from the original railroad whose right of way was railbanked to commence service.
Here is one example of a trail that is being studied for reactivation as a rail line up in Skagit County.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projec.....RailStudy/
Re: 66
ER, that’s a great trail, and now a good thing they preserved the corridor!
Do not know if it will be feasible, but you are right, good thing the corridor was preserved. Part of Highway 20 destroyed another railroad, the Skagit Valley Railroad. What was interesting about that one, was who owned it and who it served. Seattle City Light, they could not have built and supported their dams upriver without it. Some of the first supplies for the first of those dams were hauled up by Mule Train.
http://www.historylink.org/ess.....le_id=5347
In a book called “To Tacoma by Trolley” some of the Puget Sound Electric Railway’s Interurban cars ended up there.(Others were used as Logging Crew coaches for Weyrhauser, towed by logging engines, of course).
It would seem the area’s overabundant “Big Picture Thinkers” and regional planners have once again rigged the game to reach the same predetermined outcome; pitting hikers and bikers against the Foamers in some odd scheme to preclude future use of this rail line for anything other than a promised regional trail “at some time in the future.”
Mr. Simms won’t take my political advice either, but watch as even the PSRC (Puget Sound Regional Council) has formed yet another committee now studying the BN&SF Eastside loop – undoubtedly to the point of gridlock.