The Seattle Times thinks that Gov. Chris Gregoire’s budget is too high because it leaves the state with projected budget deficits out into the future.
Well, yeah… but even a budget that merely keeps pace with growth in demand for public services (which roughly tracks growth in personal income) would result in projected budget deficits out into the future. In fact, even if we ratchet government down and only try to have spending keep pace with population growth plus inflation, we’ll still end up with budget deficits projected indefinitely out into the future.
That is because we have an inadequate and unfair tax structure that simply cannot keep pace with our economy, resulting in a structural budget deficit as far as the eye can see.
For too long the state has dealt with this structural deficit by delaying investment in critical infrastructure. The result is a multi-billion dollar backlog in transportation maintenance and construction, and a higher education system that’s fails to accommodate all our state’s college bound students… and at an ever increasing tuition cost. Spending per K-12 student is amongst the lowest in the nation, and Spokane and Seattle area teacher salaries adjusted for local cost of living are near the bottom of the 100 largest metropolitan areas nationwide.
There is a popular fiction — which the Times editorial board fails to refute — that Washington is a high tax state. It is not. In fact, it’s rather middling. And average state and local taxes as a percentage of personal income have dropped steadily since I moved here in 1992. I pay no state income tax, and while my property taxes have more than doubled since I purchased my home in 1997, they are less than half that of a similar house in the Philadelphia suburb in which I was raised.
A tax structure that heavily relies on taxing the sale of goods simply cannot sustain adequate revenue growth in our 21st Century service economy. It has also created the most regressive state and local tax structure in the nation.
If you earn less than $20,000 a year you live in the highest taxed state in the union. If you earn over $200,000 a year you live in one of the lowest. Unless and until we reform our tax structure so as to tax all families more fairly, we will never adequately address our state’s long term structural budget deficit. And we’ll never have a fair and adequate tax structure until we implement an income tax.
Washington only SEEMS like a high tax state because the lower your income, the larger a proportion of your income you pay in state and local taxes — so the truly affluent can get off scot-free. Guess whoooo is blocking tax reform?
Thank you for your service, klake — but that doesn’t excuse you for being a nazi! The Air Force must have stationed you in Greenland, because you seem to have a lot of time on your hands.
“A tax structure that heavily relies on taxing the sale of goods … has also created the most regressive state and local tax structure in the nation.”
It has also created a boom in internet sales of anything that can be shipped in a box weighing less than 100 lbs.
“A tax structure that heavily relies on taxing the sale of goods … has also created the most regressive state and local tax structure in the nation.”
… and has created so much traffic between Vancouver and Portland they’re talking about building another bridge across the Columbia River.
We should enact a special equalizing tax on the Oregon residents who pay Washington income taxes (0) by living in Vancouver and Oregon sales taxes (0) by shopping in Portland. These tax scofflaws are paying nothing to either state while sucking government services from both.
The Times and David Postman on his blog fuel a few additional myths as well Goldy.
1st: That a current year $30 billion budget that projects out to potentially create a $600,000 deficit in 2011 is significant. It is not. Even a statistical blip in the state economy between now and then will cause that $600,000 to go away and we have another entire biennium and three budgets between now and then.
2nd: The “Rossi budget” delayed paying state pension and had a projected deficit of $2 billion and $5 billion depending upon the out year. So in terms of fiscal policy, if this Gregiore budget is careless then the “Rossi Budget” was criminal.
Hey Goldy, if you think an income tax is such a great idea why don’t you start an initiative to get that going? Gates senior has come out in favor of an income tax. Maybe you could get him to give you a couple of million to gather signatures and promote it.
Let us know how that goes.
Dumfuckingass…
Welcher @6,
Dumfuckingass because I believe an income tax would be good for the state and its citizens, or because I’m working towards implementing an income tax despite the daunting odds?
You want WA to be Alabama, then by all means, stick with what we have. Me, I’d prefer to see WA prosper.
Washington also has no capital gains tax.
@6 Welsher — there’s a reason why 45 states have an income tax … it’s fair, and it works. And there’s a reason why Washington doesn’t: For 100 years, conservative troglodytes have blocked tax reform here, resulting in a Rube Goldberg patchwork of unfair taxes that screw the little people so affluent households can FREELOAD off those of lesser means. Pay your gambling debt, welsher!
@7 If welsher wants to live in Alabama, then by God he should move to Alabama and stop polluting our fair state by breathing here!
@8 Republicans believe capital gains and investment income shouldn’t be taxed — they think only wages should be taxed! Wage earners are already treated extremely unfavorably compared to owners of capital and those receiving inheritance windfalls they did nothing to earn.
Under this system, why the fuck should anyone work? Now that I have sufficient independent income to obviate the necessity of working, it’s pointless for me to work, because all the rewards of employment are taxed away so the capital owning class can enjoy even more unfair tax benefits! So I’ve stopped contributing to society and become a part of the bloodsucking capital-owning class because the former is punished while the latter is rewarded! Hey, I just go with the flow.
Pretty soon, we’ll be a country where nobody works and everyone lives off CD interest and flipping real estate to each other.
The Republicans made sure there is absolutely no incentive to work in this country. You’re a fool to work! The action is “owning,” baby! Let the Republicans do all the work in their businesses themselves! Why the fuck should anyone work for them?
Since the “employee” labor model is obsolete, and we’re all going to be self-employed independent contractors, the guy who collects shopping carts in Wal-Mart’s parking lot will have to charge Wal-Mart $200 an hour for his services. After all, when you’re an independent business, you have a lot of overhead — including corporate logo and advertising, stock options, and the company airplane.
Fo those of you who drink the kool aid… a “fair” tax is defined as a tax that the other guy has to pay.
In the case of the fucking loser moonbats here, that means taxing the shit out of The Producers.
So Goldy, does that mean you’re working on an income tax initiative?
Click here for photo of Joe’s Shopping Cart Service, Inc.’s company airplane. http://tinyurl.com/ylnnam
I get so tired of this whole argument. . .
First, Locke himself said that states with income taxes aren’t making it either and need sales taxes. Of course, I know it isn’t either or . . . but, food and health services are not taxed. So discretionary spending is taxed and people can choose what to buy. Seems fair to me.
Second, more and more people (including myself) have had to take two jobs to afford certain amenities like a house to live in. An income tax taxes labor. If you could promise a higher rate on unearned income, maybe I’d buy into the idea. But, taxing people who work sixty hours a week as if they’re working forty is the most unfair tax of all.
If, for our taxes, we got universal health care and other social programs that were really low cost or free and really served all the people, maybe you could sell me. But, those of us who work, work, work and have lower middle incomes are stretched pretty thin as it is. I’m starting to feel resentment I never thought I would as a previously good liberal. I can’t afford to provide great views for rich downtown developers. I even voted against our beautiful new library because it was more taxation.
I guess your little blogging career pays you pretty well. I don’t care if Philadelphia’s real estate taxes are higher. My real estate taxes moved from $600 to $4000 in the last fourteen years. If all property taxes have risen similarly, where the hell is all that money going?
Finally, find a way to tax people who can afford it. Then I might consider an income tax . . . but only one that takes into account the difference between labor and unearned income.
Ted Halstead of Foundation for The New America Foundation discussed this some years ago. If I can find the link, I’ll post it.
RR @10 – Not only do wealthy indivduals enjoy these permanent tax holidays, but companies that bitch about the buisness taxes (which are high, to make up for no income tax) can move subsidiaries to other states that don’t have those taxes. But it’s generally only the biggies – like Microsoft – that can make it work. MS has registered dozens of companies in Nevada because that state has no B&O. Subsequently, MS has been able to shelter billions of dollars, and that has cost our state well over $300 million in revenues. It’s nice that Bill and Melinda are giving so much money to other countries for education. It would be even nicer if the company he founded would pay its fair share of revenues towards Washington’s education system, a system that he spends a lot of time bitchng about. On the issue of an equitable tax structure, Bill Sr. and Bill Jr. are miles apart.
@15 Under the Republicans, the way this works is you get a $75 million tax credit for buying a $50 million airplane, so you come out $25 million ahead AND you get the airplane! The government pays you lavishly for spending lavishly on something you don’t need — and it’s all FREE because instead of raising taxes to pay for these tax breaks, the Republicans CUT taxes so the deficit gets BIGGER and BIGGER!!! Starve the beast, ya know! That fucker should be good and dead by the time every household in America has a G-550 to tool around in with the kids during spring break. All tax-deductible, of course!
skagit – do you really consider clothing, furniture and bedding to be “discretionary spending”? I think of them as basics. The fact that health care isn’t taxed doesn’t mean much to the person who can’t afford health care in the first place.
And state income taxes would be deductible from the federal.
@13 Well I’m sure as hell not producing anything sitting here on my ass cashing dividend checks, so you must be referring to the working class. Pay your gambling debt, welsher! Like Republicans everywhere, the only thing YOU produce is hot air and bad debt.
Hey Goldy – Be sure to include the part about it being “revenue neutral” too. That’s one of my favorites. Also, be sure to say something about “giving back”. That should do it.
That’s the point, isn’t it, mickey? Even the people who have so much money that they can give it away in dump trucks won’t pay the friggin’ freight that makes the infrastructure sound enough to transport their products.
And, I’m not so sure that Bill Sr. would be so liberal if Bill Jr. weren’t so rich. Maybe . . . maybe not. With Bill around, he doesn’t have to worry about any of his kids. He can afford to be altruistic. I was in a position to ask Bill Sr. for help for our school. He said if he did it for us, he’d have to do it for all schools. Well, you know, Junior’s got billions and billions. He probably could do it for all schools . . . and we weren’t asking for that much. Soemtimes I don’t think even Bill Sr. can comprehend billions and billions . . . BTW, we asked because we heard he had done it for another school. But, I guess we got in line too late.
I always find it fascinating that people who have no fucking money and never will consisder themselves experts on how those of us who do have money should spent it.
16 “Finally, find a way to tax people who can afford it. Then I might consider an income tax . . . ”
Skagit, have you ever read the Gates commission report? It’s a tedious read, but highly educational. I recommend it. http://tinyurl.com/lyl7v
Basically, what it says is the bottom 20% pay 17% of their income in state and local taxes, whereas the top 20% pay only 4%. In other words, the taxes are distributed toward the bottom of the income scale. If you’re working two jobs to make ends meet, then you’ll probably benefit from shifting more of the tax burden to the top of the income scale, which is what replacing the sales tax with an income tax does. Depending on the tax reform package selected, there may be some property tax relief in there, too.
Keep in mind that high-income households consume less of their income, and what they invest isn’t taxed at all by the state. Nor do they pay sales or personal property invariably registered in the names of corporations with out-of-state domains in tax-friendly states.
You’re getting screwed by the current tax system, my friend. The entire working class is. That’s why we liberals are agitating for reform.
Let me help you Goldy… Here are some of the essential concepts you need to include in your income tax initiative:
1) Don’t call it a tax. Be sure to call it an “investment”.
2) Be sure to say that the tax structure will be “fair”.
3) Make sure that it’s a blend of both sales tax and income tax that is “revenue neutral.”
4) Give iron clad assurances that the rates will NEVER creep up; that’s it’s only to stablize gummint revenue.
5) Make mention of the necessity for the winners of life’s lottery to “give back.”
You should call your organization something like “Citizens for Public Investment Fairness.”
Well, I’m not sure who the ranting redneck is referring to, but due to a fiscally conservative lifestyle, I happen to be financially comfortable. Of course, I got mine by purely ethical and legal means.
Would love to hang around and chat, but I need to get to Macy’s and do some shopping so that I can continue contributing the state’s coffers.
erratum
should read “Nor do they pay sales or personal property taxes on expensive airplanes and yachts as these are invariably registered in the names of corporations with out-of-state domains in tax-friendly states.
mickey at 19: My heart agrees with you. It is just that my own physical and single being can’t keep up anymore. How much blood can you squeeze from this turnip. The middle class has been paying and paying and some of us are on the edge. I still give quite a lot of my income to charity but it is usually environmental. It is important to me.
I would expect that low income people can buy bedding. I’ve certainly purchased myself at St. Vinnies and Goodwill. I was raised by a family that routinely shopped there because money was very, very tight. I can also remember shopping with my mother for her very first china cabinet – a special purchase and one that she’d saved for. Now, we buy them at Costco cause they are built by cheap labor in China. Furniture factories have gone out of business in the states.
I’m afraid I think low income people still purchase a lot of stuff that might be better off without. Books from the library aren’t as expensive as ipods and video games.
Funny story; you know I’m a teacher. We have a giving tree at our school. Some years ago I took a request from a fifth grader – he was an immigrant from Cambodia and very, very poor – and he wanted a Sega or (whatever the other one was-Atari maybe – but I don’t think so). I went to the store and asked about them cause I knew nothing about them. After hearing all about the differences between the two, I picked the Sega. Now this cost me around $100.
Well the child obviously didn’t know I had purchased it. It was an anonymous give. I casually asked him if he got what he want and he was reamed because he got a Sega instead of a (sorry,still can’t remember the other name) and he wasn’t happy at all.
Well, I’m sorry, but I see supposedly poor kids all the time who are walking around with name brands on their shoes and expensive electronics.
Ew! I’m sounding so Republican here – I hate myself! But, it isn’t that I want to deprive anybody in need. I just want some sanity. The more you take from those of us in the middle, the more you continue to deprive those at the bottom because it is those of us in the middle who are not only paying for the programs that help the bottom but we are paying for the programs that help the top and there are becoming fewer of us to do it because so many more of us are moving into the bottom.
Don’t you get that?
Rabbit at 16: see my last post. I do know that! What I don’t understand is why people like Goldy and Mark don’t get that.
Make that Rabbit at 24 please . . .
Skagit -C’mon… stop being so selfish. You have a cushy job working 9 months per year. Open up yer wallet and “invest” my friend…
19 Well sales taxes are deductible from federal now, too, thanks to the efforts of our Democratic senators and NO THANKS to the GOP scumbags who tried to hold the sales tax deduction hostage for a $2.13 an hour minimum wage (or whatever the hell the tail was that they tried to pin on the donkey). I’ve spent half of this morning trying to figure out what my sales tax deduction is but the instructions are incomprehensible.
TAX ALERT: The IRS has NOT updated its 1040 forms or publications for the sales tax deduction and you’ll have to follow some special procedures to claim it. http://tinyurl.com/yd9jsu
Roger@ 10.
How many times should we tax the money we earn? 2,3,4 times?
I invest my post tax income dollars, earn a return and the govt gets another shot, and again and again and again.
Then the taxes we pay into SS get taxed when we begin to receive the benefits…
Before we start throwing around NEW ways to spend the citizens money, or take it away, we should better priorotize spending.
Free homes for Bums to drink themselves into oblivion is a start. Or Super high-tech toilets that have turned into crack houses and places to turn tricks…..
Stop the pet project funding first, then come back to the citizens with new tax schemes.
Skagit – In your post at 16 you said you’d support a tax against those who “can afford it”. Just for reference… who would those people be?
Moonbat Definition: Rich person – Some who has more than you.
MTR – YOU’RE SUCH A FUCKING IGNORAMUS. LIKE ALMOST ALL WINGNUTS, IT’S ME, ME, ME.
JUST PAY YOUR FUCKING GAMBLING DEBT AND LEAVE!
BY THE WAY, YOU CAN’T LEGISLATE AN INCOME TAX THROUGH AN INITIATIVE – IT’S AGAINST THE STATE CONSTITUTION.
DUMBASS!
25 You’re hired! Now pay your fucking gambling debt, welsher!
28 I’ve noticed that many immigrants acquire late model cars within 24 hours after getting off the boat — long before they have a job … or insurance. How do they do that?
If there was ever a time to do an income tax, this is it. The girlz are large and in charge and there’s not a fucking thing GOP can do to stop them.
Goldy says
“Well, yeah… but even a budget that merely keeps pace with growth in demand for public services (which roughly tracks growth in personal income)”
Which public services are we talking about exactly….
Educating illegal immigrants? How about the overload on the healthcare system due to illegal immigrants. How about the cost of incarcerating illegal immigrants…..
I know the DEMS rely on the illegal vote (pun intended)
{motor votor laws et al} Essential services should be funded first, not last.
The nanny state govt always wants more money and new ways to run our lives, so that we are dependent on it….
No Thanks.
They steal them roger…
31 Teaching a “cushy” job? Yeah, right. Nowadays, teachers spend most of their time parenting and policing, and squeeze in teaching whenever they can. And God help the teacher who lays a hand on a kid just because he brought a loaded handgun to school! For what that job pays, I wouldn’t touch it, hell no! Frankly, Redneck, I don’t think you could cut it in teaching. You don’t have what it takes.
SKAGIT: PULL YOUR HEAD OUT. THE ONLY GOOD REASON FOR AN INCOME TAX IS TO MAKE THE ENTIRE SYSTEM FAIRER, I.E. SPREAD AS FAR AND AS THINLY THROUGHOUT THE CONSUMERS OF GOVERNMENT SERVICES.
IN OTHER WORDS – AN INCOME TAX MUST MEAN A REDUCTION IN YOUR PROPERTY AND SALES TAXES. A REDUCTION IN BUSINESS TAXES ESPECIALLY SMALL BUSINESS WOULD BE WELCOME AS WELL.
I WOULDN’T SUPPORT IT OTHERWISE.
39 All the wingnut cliches in one paragraph. Neat. And total bullshit.
40 That’s what I thought.
39, 40 Yeah, I think it’s important to keep non-citizens from voting. If they steal cars, they probably vote Republican too.
Skagit, I totally get it. I work as a painting contractor and I can assure you, I make a very middle class income. I’m the last person who wants to see the middle class squeezed any more. But you should read the study that RR cited. He’s right. We are getting screwed. And the study comes up with various ways to reach equity, including a value added tax, an income tax, a cpaital gains tax or even some kind of flat tax.
I’m not in favor of tax “fixes” that only concentrate in one area, because that doesn’t “fix” anything. We can’t have a truly equitable system if all we do is institute a new tax on workers or consumers. We have got to close the glaring loopholes for the rich on the other end. It’s the only way to approach balance. That would require real leadership and a take-no-prisoners stand from those at the top. The governor has said she doesn’t see a reason to rescind any of the current tax breaks, but it’s not just up to her. HB 1069 (which passed in the last session) requires the input of a joint legislative committee reporting to a citizen’s commission. Personally, I’d like to see more than just a discontinuation of tax breaks that don’t fulfill the promise of new jobs and revenue. If the tax break is predicated on real results, comapnies that abuse it should be made to pay it back. It’s called a “clawback”. It works in Minnesota, and it can work here. Rednecks won’t like it because it mandates accountability from corporations, but you can’t please everybody, now can you?
I really need to get shopping!
And Skagit – I have friends who are/have been teachers. Believe me, you have my utmost respect.
Damn, Rabbit, I wrote really long response and then started thinking about the deduction on my federal income taxes and said to myself . . . hmm. Because I worked two jobs for many years, I paid very heavily into the tax system.
Currently, I scrounge every receipt and use every deduction available to me on the federal taxes . . . so I don’t know if a state income tax would help me or not. To increase my income I have turned rooms into apartments and a small needy cabin into a little summer rental – the tax breaks help me afford it.
BTW, it was the equity in my house that helped acquire the rest . . . I started small and worked my ass off. Never one to have profited from lawyer rates myself.
While I don’t have much discretionary income today, I should have a pretty decent retirement. That’s after I pay all the capital gains on sold property of course.
So, I guess I don’t know which would help me the most. I only know that what I have came from a lot of labor-intensive effort and I’m sure tired of us who really do work having to bear the burden for the top and the bottom.
Mark at 31: I’ve invested twice through deferred compensation:
First time, after about eight years in a good Fidelity plan, I was forced to buy time in 2000 due to a job change. I used the comp money to do it. Do you remember 2000? At the time I took the money out, it had fallen back to roughly the same amount I had invested.
Second time, I used a broker – one with a good rep – and gave him a small account I had nurtured and increased myself – and he between commissions and poor judgment on his part, that one two went south. I also gave him another deferred comp account (remember, I worked two jobs) and he immediately put it into a conservative bond account. So, six years later it has made approximately $2000.) I’ve have since fired him.
But, I am getting closer to retirement and frankly, I’m a little nervous about where to put that bond money. Will we have another bust in a few years when I am ready to retire and will any investment account be there for me?
The best luck I’ve had is in real estate. I’ve picked up a few pieces of property and that property has increased in value.
Sometimes I think wealth is nothing more than the luck of the draw. And you all think you are so smart! You either have the luck of a good income or you’ve had the luck I’ve had on property as opposed the bad luck I’ve had in the stock market.
If you were honest, you’d admit that and quit being so small minded.
41 – Teaching is fucking easy. Guaranteed job security. Decent pay. Every summer off.
Teachers: think you got it tough? Go out and get a real job. One where you gotta go find customers, provide a product or service of higher quality and lower cost than the next guy, and then hope they pay on time. Then deal with globalization and the threat that somebody shitsackisatan will do it for cheaper, or that somebody will leapfrog you with a technology you can’t have.
Gimme a fucking break…
Roger at 32: . . . out what my sales tax deduction is but the instructions are incomprehensible.
When we last had the sales tax deduction, I kept every damn receipt. My deduction was about twice that of the standard deduction. That’s why I said earlier I’m not sure state income tax deduction would really help me!
Mark: Skagit – In your post at 16 you said you’d support a tax against those who “can afford it”. Just for reference… who would those people be?
Moonbat Definition: Rich person – Some who has more than you.
Basically, what it says is the bottom 20% pay 17% of their income in state and local taxes, whereas the top 20% pay only 4%. In other words, the taxes are distributed toward the bottom of the income scale. (Rabbit at 24) I highlighted it cause you apparently missed it.
I would as that those at the top pay the same as I do. But, anybody who welshes on debts probably welshes on their taxes too.
BTW, when you gonna pay the sales tax on all that art you buy out of state?I
Oh, and Mark, since you have trouble with reading comprehension, look me up. I have some remedial programs you mighy like. . .
Skagit – So who should pay? You’ve exempted yourself, so I assume everyone 40k and under gets a free ride.
How much do you think those of us who “can afford it” should pay?
The falacy of course is that you can ALWAYS pay more than you have to…..if you wish too…..
So here is a call to all you big govt dems…… Pay more taxes than you have to.
If you feel so strongly that govt is underfunded, volunteer more……
Surely your govt needs the money…
Yoslibby: IN OTHER WORDS – AN INCOME TAX MUST MEAN A REDUCTION IN YOUR PROPERTY AND SALES TAXES. A REDUCTION IN BUSINESS TAXES ESPECIALLY SMALL BUSINESS WOULD BE WELCOME AS WELL.
Well, I don’t know where your heads been but I haven’t seen that put on any table.
You talk a pretty general game. . . so far, nobody in Seattle can agree on school closure (me me me me me me me); nobody can decide on the viaduct (me me me me me me me me); and now you think somebody will actually acquire consensus on an income tax? (me me me me me me me me me me me me me)
As a member of a the hard-working, very labor-burdened middle class, I can say with pride it has never been about me. But, maybe it oughta be pretty soon.
But wait, that’s not redistribution……
sorry, forgot who the audience is here.
Mark: you’ve exempted yourself,
Where did I exempt myself? And I’ll post a third time for slow learners:
it says is the bottom 20% pay 17% of their income in state and local taxes, whereas the top 20% pay only 4%.
OK… so you want lowest 20% to pay an income tax 17% and top 20% to pay 4%?
mickey at 46: We can’t have a truly equitable system if all we do is institute a new tax on workers or consumers. We have got to close the glaring loopholes for the rich on the other end. It’s the only way to approach balance.
We are both idealists. Gregoire won’t touch it because she won by eight votes (to avoid another rant on the right, I won’t include all the contested but legal votes). The rich right will buy more media than anybody has seen in a lifetime to make sure that a state income tax will leave loopholes for the wealthy. Show me where it has happened any other way.
I’m interested in your Minnesota example. Will check it out. But, this state has a lot of money and it talks. Our wealthy maybe liberal, but when it comes to taxation, I don’t think so . . . do you remember the tax-the-art story?
And remember the media purchased by the insurance companies when Clinton tried to change health care?
And Mark, I didn’t know it was illegals breaking the healthcare system. I thought it was the insurance companies. Well, it doesn’t matter. I’m paying for that, too. The illegals get it free and the insurance companies are profiteering and making out like bandits.
Is it really the conservatives who are blocking a state income tax or is it those billionaire liberals in Seattle???
I haven’t seen that put on any table.
SKAGIT. C’MON! EVER HEAR OF THE SIMS PLAN?
GET WITH IT. IN THIS STATE YOU CAN’T SELL AN INCOME TAX OTHERWISE!
Well haha. I also am glad to see that Queen Crissy’s little illegitimate sin-tax hike of $1.33 (I think it was)on fifths of liquor might be repealed as it so rightfully deserves to be. It’ll be hilarious when all that revenue has to be refunded to those that request it. Lying bitch gets what she deserves on that one. Happy holidays all.
@ 60
“And Mark, I didn’t know it was illegals breaking the healthcare system. I thought it was the insurance companies. Well, it doesn’t matter. I’m paying for that, too. The illegals get it free and the insurance companies are profiteering and making out like bandits.”
And we are paying for it!
Right stuff – Huh? You mean you don’t want to invest in health care for undocumented workers? You cold heartless bastard…
Mark: Teachers: think you got it tough? Go out and get a real job. One where you gotta go find customers, I teach at a school that gets shopped. I am my own publicity person. We spend an amazing part of our staff meeting time analyzing programs, prof development opportunities, and school programs for that very reason. Or haven’t you noticed they are closing schools these days – or trying to at least. And, we get customers that we might not desire. For you, any customer will do – providing they pay. We take whomever comes and make the best of it. And we have to customize our product to the customer. It is all in-house . . . can’t call China for a better modem.
provide a product or service of higher quality and lower cost than the next guy, sure sounds like teaching to me . . . except we don’t get to pick our market. We have to sell to everybody and our product has to be marketable to everybody. As a teacher, my head is on the block as well. Of course, if a principal doesn’t do his/her job, I get a pass. True enough. But, you know, I can’t tell you how many services and products I’ve purchased over the years that have not lived up to the promised standard. Might have been you . . who knows? The quality of products and services from cell phone and cable service to plumbers, electricians and esp. contractors – not to mention that crap Radio Shack, Walmart, and Sears sells is the stuff of jokes these days. Just sayin’ . . .
and then hope they pay on time. and then hope the pay for Ks (which are offered to make the product more desirable) are paid for according to the prearranged financial commitment and that teachers can finally collect a pay increase every five year commensurate with even 1% of the profit margins on your supposed quality products.
Then deal with globalization and the threat that somebody shitsackisatan will do it for cheaper, or that somebody will leapfrog you with a technology you can’t have. while keeping up with the three credit hours or thirty clock hours for which I have to pay every year just to keep credentials current and the other optional professional dev. I take to keep myself current with research and best practices and to maintain a quality of teaching that will compete with private schools and emerging charter/voucher choices. I said this to an architect parent of mine once and he responded that architects only have to do ten hours a year – non accredited.
BTW, aren’t you one of those conservatives who like Bush thinks outsourcing is good government policy?
All of that and I don’t even get the sales tax break you guys get even though I spend anywhere from $1000- $3000 a year on my classroom. (Granted, not all teachers spend that much but most teachers spend out of their own pockets.) Gee, I’d love it if I could purchase for my classroom tax tree. Gee, I’d love it if I could write off all my expenses. Gee, I’d love it if I could put an advertisement for my school and education in general on my car and write it off.
BTW, I guess you do all your workin’ in your what 8-9 hour day? I’m assuming that since you didn’t include that in your whine. Yeah my work year starts the last week of August and runs through the middle of June. Course, the week I spend in professional development (at my expense) might be considered; and the two weeks I spend getting my classroom cleaned up and paperwork finished (I was still delivering papers packages in August this year) without pay (might be considered) and the week before the week before schools starts (you know, the one I’m in meetings all week which are usually paid meetings) might be considered . . .
We won’t mention all the nights I’m there babysitting . . . winter concert, spring concert . . . or parent-desired potlucks and picnics . . . or conferencing with parents (my market, you know – I’m sort of on call but I don’t think you’d get that) till 4 or 5 pm or perhaps an evening call and then I get to do the work to ready my teaching for the next day since I’m actually one-twenty five during the day I really can’t spend much time at my desk or taking calls or talking to my parents(market). So, have to return those calls and emails . . . have to correct those papers . . . have to go to those meetings.
I have more . . . but I’m tired of typing. But, Mark, if you ever really do do something to help education out, please lobby to get the custodians to clean the damn schools.
Oh, poor mark. So, sad . . . just a poor American capitalist who whines about how bad he’s got it . . . while he’s taking all his customers to the cleaners and welshing on his bets.
Mickey, hope you got out. I, too, have plans and am late, late, late . . . Merry Merry one and all!
Seriously… I really hope The Girlz try to do an income tax in the upcoming session.
I really do…
Mark The Redneck KENNEDY says:
OK… so you want lowest 20% to pay an income tax 17% and top 20% to pay 4%?
Mark, you cannot be this stupid. You truly need my help. Call me . . . 253-850-3371
Skagit – No, I haven’t noticed they’re closing schools. In my district they build a new one about every year. They’re buying land now for new schools they think they’ll need in 5-10 years.
When was the last time schools laid off 1/3 of their workforce? Happens in my business all the time. Good people get booted because of the cyclic nature of the business. Don’t bullshit me… we both know it’s almost impossible to fire a teacher for any fucking reason.
So what’s wrong with “lifelong learning”? Don’t you promote that? You aren’t special. I do it… how do you think I got all those letters after my name? If everybody was like you and me, there’d be a lot fewer losers out there complaining about how unfair life is. And I didn’t do it during the summer when there was nothing else to do. I did all of mine evenings after I had already put in a full day.
8-9 hour day? Who the fuck does that? Try 7 days a week and 10-12 hours/day.
Who’s complaining? Not me. Life is good. I’m just SAFT of the freeloaders out there who think I should pay for their stoopid fucking choices. Fuck them…
Skagit – I’m not going to call you. Post the rates here for everybody to see.
Is this you? Are you Emilie Bonney?
http://www.edukstation.com/home.html
Since I started teaching there has been one rif and I was not affected. Of course, with schools closing, teachers are looking for jobs.
But, Mark, a huge percentage of teachers (I’ve read 50% but hate to cite it) leave teaching in the first five years. It is a hard and demanding job. It is expensive and it is time consuming. You have very little free time even at home. Also, a lot of people who got into it because they thought it was an easy profession with fair pay and who aren’t particularly ambitious find they not up to it. Good riddance I say. You think teachers get away with a lot. Well, I teach in a school where parents are very vigilant. I have to perform. Also, if you want to see our market, watch the school board meetings on 26 (SSD school channel) – you think those parents aren’t demanding. Perhaps I think some of those parents should demand more from their kids but currently, the teacher is the scapegoat for everyone.
With such turnover, not much need for letting people go. They aren’t there to begin with. And in Seattle which pays very compared even to its neighboring districts – esp. given how expensive it is to live here, in my school we haven’t kept an intern for the last ten years. They work one year and leave for the east coast, California, or they go off to an international placement. I could name them all but must leave . . .
I remember your story about the classroom you visited, I thought at the time you should have been the teacher you want all of us to be. I’m sorry those teachers didn’t impress you. They may have given up. We do not have the support we need when faced with parents who tell us “not my child.” So, hopefully we all do the best we can just like it sounds like you do the best you can even if Radio Shack doesn’t.
Mark:So what’s wrong with “lifelong learning”?
Red herring, Now you’re changing the subject. I could say the same to you . . . keeping up with tech and all.
We both admire life-long learning, I’m sure, but life-long learning to me implies I get to choose what it is. Keeping up in my specialty as in yours is what it is: basic to doing your job well.
Well, we are both in the business of taking money for a hopefully good product. We both think we provide a quality product and it sounds as if we agree there are people in both our fields who don’t.
I have a generous nature and you have a stingy nature; I’m loving; you’re hateful; I care; you don’t. So be it.
As for being bonney? I’m always bonney! Go home, go home, I’ll go home with . . .
I’m done.
Redneck, regarding “how do you think I got all those letters after my name?”, my guess would be that you got the ‘BA (political science)’ from a bunch of tax money and government loans that you’ve long since defaulted on. You probably got the ‘BSC’ (bronze swimming certificat) because there were only three people in the race.
Bill, ALL my degrees are from private universities. And they sure as shit aren’t in political science.
Redneck, bullshit, noone with a hard science degree knows as little about science, economics or is as inprecise as you are. Capacitors, remember?
And if you really did go to private university, how did you pay for it. You have claimed to be self made and not an inheritance baby. Was it governement loans or have you ‘gasp’ lied about something once again.
Did you pay back your loans, or is it ‘your fucking money’ and not a gift to forgive those loans?
And lets face it, we all know you dont really run a business either, noone as allergic to actually paying what he owes as you are could actually keep a company running.
Out of curiosity Redneck, have you ever read anything not previously vetted by the Rand Corporation?
Vagina Lips asserts: “Fo those of you who drink the kool aid… a “fair” tax is defined as a tax that the other guy has to pay.”
Remarkably, this is true. Rich people have been remarkably successful in popularizing the notion that rich people shouldn’t pay their fair share of taxes, and getting many voters to agree that this is somehow ‘fair’.
The time has come to have this conversation. Over and over. Keep bringing it on, Goldy.
13 Mark The Redneck KENNEDY says:
Fo those of you who drink the kool aid… a “fair” tax is defined as a tax that the other guy has to pay.
In the case of the fucking loser moonbats here, that means taxing the shit out of The Producers.
12/24/2006 at 12:58 pm
————–
And Paris Hilton produces ?????
“When was the last time schools laid off 1/3 of their workforce?”
I dunno. When was the last time the population declined by a third? Fourteenth century?
What a fucking dumb putz.
Hey Ass – Skagit wouldn’t do it… maybe you will.
If you were queen for a day, what would the income tax structure be? What would the threshold income level be? What would the rates be at different income levels? At what level does it get to 100%?
Loser…
Wow, and you demonstrate my point so well. There are no engineers who would think that it would even be possible to answer a question like that off hand in a reasonable way without a 500 page document and at least some degree of study. Someone who had actually studied hard sciences would know that this is on par with asking someone off hand to describe all forces acting on the Golden Gate bridge, only a moron would actually expect an answer in less than ten thousand words, and no anwer in this type of forum could be complete. Hence, poli sci.
Has MTR paid off the gambling debt he owes to Goldy?
No?
Thought so.
Tax wealth, not work, is what Nader said.
I agree 100%. Think about it.
Why should income from investments be taxed less than income from cold hard sweat? Many of the extremely well off (but not all) have been able to compound their wealth through loopholes, and favorable tax rates since Reagan let them off the hook, and before. Remember Reagan. Trickle -UP- ??? This was the time we started running up huge deficits. In fact we pay $180,000,000,000 a year in interest on the money Reagan Borrowed to keep his tax cuts from appearing to be the disaster they were.
I believe in a flat tax. Everyone do an inventory, and pay a percentage of your net worth. Cheaters pay a 10% penalty on everything they own. Make the rules and tax code simple. Make the cutoff something like $100,000, or even less. Tax wealth not just work. I will pay the same rate as Paris, and Mr. Gates. Nothing could be more fair. By the way, the rate would be small.
You see I have this huge advantage if I am rich. If my assets are say $3,000,000 now, I can easily get a 5% return on them, and earn $150,000 without lifting a finger. I only pay capitol gains when I use the money, so my wealth grows, and the money that I would have to pay in taxes is actually making me more money. Why is this fair to someone raising 3 kids on $20 an hour, with no health care, and no savings? They get taxed at 30%, plus ss, and medicare. I am riding cruise ships around enjoying my inheritance.
Since I could have lucked out, and made more money than mistakes in busines, and I had not gotten sick, or gotten sued, or claimed bankruptcy, or gotten divorced, or had any other setbacks, I would get all the advantages….
49 Skagit — bonds are a really bad place to invest right now — so don’t! Put that money in CDs or carefully picked stocks. When picking stocks, ignore hype and look at fundamentals — sales, cash flow, profits, etc. Most corporations are doing really well right now. Real estate has had its run, and in most markets, there’s probably no appreciation potential left. If you’re at a loss for investing ideas, pick up the current issue of Business Week magazine and read it cover-to-cover.
Even with the help of Business Week, I’m nervous. How about just putting it into an index fund with Fidelity or someone else?
My prop is attractive to retiring baby boomers with money. It is in recreational areas with views and fairly close to salt water. I’ll hang onto that until I need to sell . . . I’m sure there will be at least one more cycle of increase before I have to sell.
Thanks for the attempt to help . . . I’ve known bonds were wrong for a very long time. Just didn’t know what was right. Those of us who lost significantly in 1999-2000 are a bit nervous about risking more.
I would imagine that Paris Hilton produces wet dreams for Mark. What’s that worth?
Skagit,
Buy 3M stock or other blue-chips listed on the NY stock exchange. There are plenty of them out there that are very solid investments, pay good dividends and provide long term continuous growth. Stay away from any stock that sound too good to be true – they usually are. Stay away from annuities and front load mutual funds- too much of your money goes into the broker’s pocket instead of your retirement. Turn your TV set to CNBC for business news and Neil Cavuto on FOX. FOX has several goodshows on Saturday mornings where you can pick up lots of investment advice, most especially what areas to stay away from.
I am a conservative , and a state income tax does appear to be the fairest way to tax us . Everytime I say that I get pummeled by my conservative friends .
Why , Because every state that does this finds itself incrementally raising sales tax after the fact . You end up with the regressive tax you set out to stop and the income tax .
Why dos that appear likely in this state , look at 601 they tell me . People say don’t do this , the LIBERALS FIND A WAY TO DO IT .
So I guess for a state income tax to come about we will need liberal politicians we can all trust … This state elects democrats , but the left that runs this political party , well they do not represent the people who vote for them , perhaps more then the republicans , but the far left socilaists that run the state are quite out of touch with the average Washingtonian ..
That is the problem, isn’t it Mick? Even when Democrats are in charge, they don’t represent the people that elected them as much as they continue to represent the conservative interests of business – big business, not small.
You denigrate the far left socialists but I’m wondering who else is out there to help? Seems like we need some extreme measures . . . maybe we oughta listen to ’em. We can always pull back. Right now I think the direction we’re going is much worse than they recommend.
Actually, I don’t agree that we have far left socialists running the state . . . I think youy need to explain that. Unless of course you are conservative and it is commensurate to your conservative point of view.
Otherwise, that’s total crap. I’m a true liberal and they aren’t anywhere near my arena.
Mark: . . . 8-9 hour day? Who the fuck does that? Try 7 days a week and 10-12 hours/day.
You missed one, Bill, Mark, if you’re working 10-12 hrs a day seven days a week, are you multitasking: selling your customer while posting on HA?
Or are you in need of remediation in math as well as reading?
Washington State Income Tax Return–2006, due July 31, 2007
[name]
[address]
[address]
[city, state, zip]
[social security number or numbers]
The Consumer Price Index for the first half of 2006 is 204.5 and 100 times that is $20,450 which is the baseline for 2007 State taxes.
If you did not file a United States Federal Income Tax return for 2006, check here [ ], sign this form and mail it in.
If you filed a Federal Income Tax return for 2006 (married filing joint, married filing as single, single), follow these steps for your Washington State return:
From form 1040, enter the amount on line 22
or 1040ez, enter the amount on line 4
or 1040a, enter the amount on line 21
adjusted gross income………………………………………………………………………here:$_________
From form 1040, enter the amount on line 37
or 1040ez,enter the amount on line 7
or 1040a, enter the amount on line 27
taxable income………………………………………………………………………………….here:$_________
If your adjusted gross income (line 22 or 4 or 21) is $20,449 or less, then sign this form and send it in.
If your adjusted gross income is $20,450 or greater, then you will calculate your State income tax from your taxable income (the amount on line 37 or 7 or 27) on the Federal tax return.
If line 37 or 7 or 27 is between $20,450 and $40,899 you multiply that number by 0.01 (one percent) and enter your tax……………………………………………………………………..here:$_________
If line 37 or 7 or 27 is between $40,900 and $102,249 you multiply that number by 0.015 (one and a half percent) and enter your tax…………………………………………….here:$_________
If line 37 or 27 is between $102,250 and $299,999 you multiply by 0.02 (two percent) and enter your tax…………………………………………………………………………………………….here:$_________
If line 37 or 27 is $300,000 or more, your tax is ……………………………………………….$6,000
Signature of filer________________________________________
Spouse (joint return)____________________________________
Attach your forms W-2 for State Return. Enter your Washington State income tax withheld here:$_____________
If your tax withheld is larger than your tax, request your refund amount here:$_____________
If your tax withheld is less than your tax, or you had no withholding, then remit the amount due with this return on or before July 31, 2007.
Socialists don’t solve problems , they just share them with others .
People in poverty don’t get helped by receiving just enough money to stay in poverty . FREE Health CareCoverage without any strings attached , like its a right the left says then you receive no incentive to better take of yourself , smoking , the kind of food you eat ,etc .
People get out of poverty by changing their live styles , their circle of friends . I got a job , a good Union job because I knew someone who told where and when they were hiring . My friends were middle class mentality folks ..
People in poverty , especially if they are second generation have no such connections . All the people they know are poor , have no future no past ,.. and certainly have no clue how to get out of the vicious circle . They know no one who has made it to the middle class life we take for granted . They are not lazy like some conservatives believe , and they need more then just a helping hand like some liberals think . When I had young kids , I taught them to seek a cop out if they were lost . Poor kids are taught cops are people to avoid .. When your poor, cops almost always are bad news . The whole way of thinking is almost totally abstract to a middle class mentality . Give a poor kid homework ? Wonder why his parents never show up to student review night , teacher thinks the parents don’t care , what happens if the parent has a 5th grade reading level .. Poor folks get misunderstood all the time , expect a government agency to help .. Ha ha , actually its sad .
Now if you could figure out government policies that help people to stop needing the government , that is helping them , then you got socialism I can live with ..
Your right I guess , big business does keep the democrats from going over to the far left . But Capitalism I prefer to Socilaism , Capitalism without restraint is pretty uncaring , and I see socialism as non effective ..
What you need in my opinion is a capitalism with tax incentives to produce renewable energy , better tax incentives to hire employees that work here instead of India or wherever .
And for political folks to stop ridiculing, demonizing each others role models in community and elected psoitions . , Because the truly poor in this country have no role models that eith politcal party can relate to , and till we get that down we just end up on blogs blaming one another .
Mark said:
“8-9 hour day? Who the fuck does that? Try 7 days a week and 10-12 hours/day.”
Yeah, right, Mark….your first post in this thread was at 12:29pm and your last one was at 5:15pm, and you had a total of 20 posts spread throughout the afternoon.
Yeah, right….you’re working hard. Real hard. And this doesn’t even count all the other posts you do here, ad nauseum, day-in, day-out, in virtually every thread. I would say that just about all you do all day long is post here.
You’re just a fucking liar, aren’t ya?