The Christmas trees have gone back up at Sea-Tac airport. Whoopee.
The story went national — and big — about how airport officials were forced to remove the trees after a local rabbi threatened to sue. Only problem is, the rabbi never asked for the trees to be removed, and certainly never threatened to sue to remove them. All the rabbi wanted was a single electric menorah to be displayed alongside one of the trees, a request for which there is established legal precedent.
But, well, I suppose you can’t blame Port officials for just assuming the rabbi would sue, because after all, he is a Jew. And that’s what us Jews do, huh?
Anyway, the trees are back, but the damage has already been done. Thanks to Port officials’ ham-fisted, insensitive and idiotic handling of the incident, millions of Americans are now enraged over the way us Jews are trying to destroy Christmas, and no retelling of the story will ever set the facts straight. Every year around this time, Sea-Tac airport will be memorialized as a major battleground in the mythical War on Christmas.
On my radio show Sunday night I repeated my assertion that all this War on Christmas bullshit — intentionally or not — is actually a war on Jews. I base this on two observations, the first being the simple historical fact that this theme was first popularized back in 1921 in Henry Ford’s infamous, anti-semitic tract “The International Jew.” My second observation is pretty straight forward: when you invoke the rhetoric of war, you imply an enemy. And…
When you talk about a war on Christmas, or anything Christian, most Christians do not instantly think of the enemy as secular humanists or even Muslims… they think of Jews. […] Whether the intent is to blame the Jews for the rash of secular “Happy Holidays” that’s supposedly destroying our nation is not the point… many Christians, in buying into this bullshit rhetoric, will naturally blame Jews.
Don’t believe me? Here’s just a sampling of the many, many angry comments left on KING-5 TV’s comment thread on the Sea-Tac incident.
Great, a group that makes up about 5% of the American population (if that), does it again. Disgusting.
Posted by: Tom at December 11, 2006 12:01 PMHe is gone too far. If he is so religious why don’t he go to his “promise land” and selebrate his holidays there.
Posted by: rita at December 11, 2006 12:10 PMI think we should consult Mel Gibson….
Posted by: Ron at December 11, 2006 12:11 PMLike it or not, this country was founded and settled by Christians; and they still make up the vast majority of the population. […] Give up! When you make up the majority, we’ll reconsider.
Posted by: WC at December 11, 2006 12:17 PMNot to worry, the Non Jesus Believing Jew will get his when he faces god. God does not take a fancy to those who conspire with other heathens to kill his only begotten son.
Makes you want to root for the Palestinians.
Posted by: Khan at December 11, 2006 12:26 PMI, like most Americans, are sick of being told what we can say and what we can do in our own country, by people who have no right. I think the NATIVITY Scene should be placed at every Jewish site of worship during their holidays!
Posted by: Sandy at December 11, 2006 12:27 PMI cannot believe that the Rabbi and other Jews from Seattle are attacking us Christians like this !! Our men and women are fighting and dying in the Middle East directly or indirectly because of our support for Israel and then he turns on us like this. How grateful !
Posted by: David O’Brocki at December 11, 2006 12:27 PMThe United States is a CHRISTIAN country! This country was founded on Christian principals! If someone migrates from their oppressed country to find a better life, don’t try to turn our country into what you ran from!!!
Posted by: Sam at December 11, 2006 12:39 PMI think that if the rabbi or anyone else does’nt like our ways of life ,our traditions and customs,that he or she should go back to wherever they came from so they can enjoy there own ways of life,traditions and customs in there own country,instead of trying to take ours away from us,and force us to learn there’s.
Posted by: W.R.Cannon at December 11, 2006 12:41 PMSomeone post a picture and the identity of the rabbi.
Posted by: Jon at December 11, 2006 12:42 PMOnce again 2% of the US population is telling 98% what to do-ain’t it enough they run the government,Hollywood,the big Media, the “Federal Reserve”(actually private banks),and AIPAC lords it over our Senate and House?? AND oh yes,the Iraq war is for ISRAEL and OIL, IN THAT ORDER.
Posted by: c. mead at December 11, 2006 12:42 PMMy father helped liberate Auschwitz in the closing days of World War II. An emaciated, thin Jewish man noticeing the cross he wore around his neck told him “Thank you. But one day my decendants will make airports around America remove your Christmas trees. Your schools will no longer have Christmas plays or mention Jesus in prayer. Nativity scenes will be outlawed across your land. But thank you for liberating me anyway”.
Posted by: Dean at December 11, 2006 12:53 PMRabbi…this is AMERICA !! We celebrate AMERICAN TRADITIONS…why do we have to honor your (one rabbi’) wishes ?? Take YOUR “traditions” and….”pound sand”. Oops…could be a double meaning there !!
Posted by: Bruce at December 11, 2006 01:07 PMI’m going to sue to have the Rabbi shave, as a person who shaves every day, that Beard offends me.
Posted by: Rob Dog at December 11, 2006 01:10 PMThe nation was founded by Christians not Jews or Muslins or Buddists.
Posted by: Maxine at December 11, 2006 01:11 PMIf that rabbi” do not likes the christmas trees!
go BACK to your country!!
this is the USA and move out!!
this is not a jewish state or country!!
give me a break!! to much crap, we are bowing down to! because of all the different races, that live in this country!!
and above all!! speak English!
Posted by: juanita at December 11, 2006 01:41 PMairport should put his picture, address and phone number up so public can chat with his sorry a–.
Posted by: charles glisson at December 11, 2006 01:49 PMOne more reason why we shouldn’t help Israel anymore…just let Iran and Syria take care of them once and for all.
Posted by: steve at December 11, 2006 02:23 PMWelcome to America. You chose to immigrate here so accept the American way. Don’t impose your father land on our land born of Christian principles. What chance do you think we would have in putting up a Christmas in Israel? The great, great majority of people in America are Christians. Blend in or move out.
Posted by: Arnie at December 11, 2006 02:35 PMGo back to your ancestors in Russia? Israhell? And stay away from America this is not JewSA but, USA.
Posted by: Ulisses at December 11, 2006 02:59 PMHOW DARE THAT MONSTER RABBI !!!
AFTER I SUPPORTED ISRAEL AND THE JEWS THIS LOWLIFE HAS THE GALL TO SUE THE AIRPORT BECAUSE OF CHRISTMAS TREES ! AND MEANWHILE HAMAS IS DECORATING BETHLEHEM IRONIC ISN’T IT . DID WE SUPPORT THE WRONG PEOPLE FELLOW CHRISTIANS ?
Posted by: GEORGE MARCHESE at December 11, 2006 03:04 PMThe rabbi is a hypocrite who represents Jewish supremacist views which are widely accepted among Jews. […] This is purely Jewish power exerting itself so they get a Jewish state for the Jewish people and we become a multicultural mosaic with no one people or religion having any power at all in this country -divide and conquer.
Posted by: Rich Fausette NYC at December 11, 2006 03:08 PMThe majority of people in this country are Christian, if the Rabbi doesn’t like looking at Christmas trees than it is time for him and anyone else like him to move out of the country. I have an idea may be he can move to Iran.
Posted by: Evelyn Gilliana at December 11, 2006 03:22 PMSee…I told you so…
Posted by: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at December 11, 2006 03:31 PMSeems as though the good Rabbi was very intent on winning friends and influencing enemies. Then “they” wonder why people “hate” them! Sign!
Posted by: Frank Spears at December 11, 2006 03:32 PMI hope Seattle people with Christmas trees refrain from spending their Christmas dollars with any Jewish business. I know I will in Vancouver and encourage my freinds to do the same. As for the Jewish community worried about looking like a grinch..if the shoe fits….perhaps you have earned that.
Posted by: rogarboy at December 11, 2006 03:44 PMAfter all we christians have done, and continue to do, for the Jews – this is the way they repay us?
Posted by: koko at December 11, 2006 03:47 PMI wonder how many Jewish business operations have Christmas trees in their stores ” cause thats where the money is” not that it’s a religous symbol
Posted by: XGI at December 11, 2006 03:51 PMCut all support to Israel, cut the MILLIONS of dollars the American people have paid out of pocket in taxes that has gone to support the Jewish state, see how they like us then.
Posted by: Mike at December 11, 2006 03:53 PMDoes it surprise anyone that a Jew would sue… ?This story just further serves to bolster the distaste the majority of good, honest, red-blooded Americans have for Zionist politics in the US of A. I know what the Port was thinking…: “Don’t upset the Jew. Dont’ upset the Jew.”
Posted by: t-d off at December 11, 2006 04:10 PMMy daughter goes to a Methodist Elementary School. This week they are viewing different holiday celebrations from different cultures. If she asks me what a Manorah is I will tell her it is a left over prop from the Phantom of the Opera.
Posted by: XGI at December 11, 2006 04:11 PMAnd you wonder why the Palestine people dislike the Jewish people. I am really trying to like everyone one but it’s getting to the point where I am losing any respect for the Jewish people. This Rabbi owes an appoligy to everyone. Maybe if the rest of us non_-Jewish people boycott the Jewish bussiness they will change their tune. The American people have had it!!!!
Posted by: Cathie at December 11, 2006 04:19 PMHe is just another example of why Jewish people, and others, especially the ACLU (which is supported predominately by Jewish people), are looked upon as the leading proponents of asking a nation, that history can demonstrate was based upon Judaeo Christion values, to mask / remove those values.
Posted by: og3p at December 11, 2006 04:22 PMLets stop exchanging gifts at Christmas and see if the Jewish owned stores want GIFTING brought back!
Posted by: XFI at December 11, 2006 04:22 PM
One of the arguments I’ve heard again and again is that by threatening to sue, the rabbi should have expected the reaction he would get from airport officials. Thus even if he never asked for the trees to be removed, the rabbi is directly to blame for the airport’s head-up-its-ass remedy.
Ignoring for a moment the fact that the rabbi never actually threatened to sue to remove the trees, I’d like to make a parallel argument: that the Christian warriors who shamelessly promote this fiction of a War on Christmas should likewise expect reactions like the ones we see in the KING-5 comment thread. Thus the propagandists responsible for promoting this theme are also directly responsible for the anti-semitic sentiment it inevitably arouses.
Of course when it comes to this particular incident it’s the Port officials who deserve most of the blame, both for making their inexplicably dumb-ass decision, and for willfully allowing the media to initially misrepresent the circumstances that led up to it. They should have anticipated that the rabbi — and by proxy, “the Jews” — would be blamed for forcing them to remove the Christmas trees. Indeed, it wouldn’t surprise me if some of these officials did anticipate the public reaction.
But then, in any war, there’s always going to be collateral damage.
Of course the people who propagate the “war on Christmas” meme expect this type of reaction. This is their goal, to polarize people and bring out the worst in people.
I hate reading the drivel that the ‘war on christmas’ right-wing nutjobs spew.
Their lack of reading and listening comprehension is always frightening.
Nowhere in the original story or later stories did it state anything but that the Rabbi was filing a civil-rights lawsuit to get them to put up, or gain the right to put up, the Menorah. There was nothing he did to make them take the trees down. Yet, they somehow have read that he forced SeaTac to remove the trees.
I still agree with SeaTac on taking them down though. If a precendent had been set on private displays being allowed, then next year the same nutjobs would be demanding they be allowed to set up a nativity since trees are rooted in paganism.
I feel your pain. I’ve been a practicing Pagan for nearly 35 years and this “War on Christmas” shit is giving me gas.
Jesus wasn’t even born on Dec. 25. As I understand it, he was most likely born in the spring. What gives Christians the right to make the ‘rules’ for this holiday anyway. Besides, it’s MY holiday, dammit!
Inevitably, some pea-brained, Left Behind-adled, sheep in a human suit will rise up from their greed-induced coma and gasp “But it’s the reason for the season!”
Give me a freaking break. Let’s see…the season? Ah, winter. The reason for celebrating winter? Hmmm… the solstice.
Yule is a Pagan celebration. Been celebrated in one form or another for a long, long time. In fact, I’m sure there were some hearty folks in Europe gathering around a Solstice fire many moons before Jesus, or even Abraham, walked the dirt.
Christmas?
–Miracle on 34th Street and It’s a Wonderful Life played 4000 times over the next two weeks, sponsored by everyone from Seagrams to Arnold’s Used Tire Emporium.
–Crowds of rude, heartless, angry minions in every marketplace, jamming lines, pushing and shoving, screaming at hyper, over-endulged, unruly children.
–Retail sales through the roof, but poverty still gets worse during this time.
–House decorating contests pit neighbor against neighbor for the crown of “Most Decorative Energy Waster in Town”.
–“How much should I spend on gifts? Buffy got me a purple sweater last year – it sucked – so this year she gets fruitcake.”
–“Is this person worth an iPod or do they just get a card?”
–The same, insipid, god-awful, songs sung by everyone from Waylon Jennings to Alvin and the Chipmonks.
–Bill O’Reilly ranting about this fabled “War on Christmas” but all we hear are simpering fart noises.
–Cutting a happy pine or fir sapling off at the knees, decorating it with baubles and popcorn, string it up with flashing lights just so we can watch it die and desicate before our eyes.
Merry Freaking Christmas!
Happy Solstice and a Happy Hanukkah, Dave. Let the Christians have Christmas. The greedy, seedy nature of the holiday fits them like a glove.
Goldy – normally I agree with you 100% – and may still agree with you – but it’s been reported that the Jews involved DID threaten a lawsuit – now it seems they have withdrawn that threat. If they DID threaten a lawsuit, then I think they were wrong to do so. I also think the port was wrong to remove the trees. And I also think the port was wrong not to add a Menorah.
I am pretty sure that the Rabbi was on MSNBC saying he did threaten to sue – so you might want to investigate that a little more. I can see why he’d backtrack from that given the reaction, but if he did say it, he deserves some of the heat he’s getting – of course not the kind of heat our resident right wing freaks would write, i.e. death threats, etc.
While 85 year old tract (written by someone who has been dead for almost 60 years) and anonymous blog comments are excellent fodder to work the left wing extremists here into a lather, it’s little evidence that there’s some anti-semitic component to those that believe that Christmas (and their beliefs) are under attack.
I am pretty sure that the Rabbi was on MSNBC saying he did threaten to sue
Did he threaten to sue to have the trees removed or to have a menorah added?
“But, well, I suppose you can’t blame Port officials for just assuming the rabbi would sue, because after all, he is a Jew. And that’s what us Jews do, huh?”
Man, what a load of crap. The rabbi did, in fact, threaten to sue. But, hey, just like in the school issue, don’t worry about the facts getting in your way of working yourself into a lather.
Why do people think that government can have someone walk up, make a demand, then go: consider a response, include all opinions as to what the response should be, not expend a lot of money in making the decision, have the decision made before some lawsuit-happy citizen files an expensive lawsuit in federal court, and make sure the answer doesn’t piss off anyone–oh yeah, and get it done in a couple of days?
The government did what any prudent organization would do when faced with a big legal threat: they considered the legal options:
1. Go to court and spend a lot of money defending putting up some silly seasonal decorations;
2. Let the rabbi place the menorah and take on the liability if it fell down and hurt someone, or got damaged; and then– Rinse and repeat over the next two weeks as other groups line up to do the same thing;
3. Decide that since you can’t possibly accommodate everyone in a short couple of weeks, you can demonstrate your willingness to not show favoritism by not accommodating anyone.
Option 3 may not have been the funnest option; but it was the most legally prudent. And while the rabbi didn’t threaten to sue specifically to have the trees taken down, he did threaten to sue and his threat did require the Port to respond and respond RIGHT NOW. That’s the whole point of the type of threat he made. To claim that it’s not his fault that the Port responded is nonsense. That he didn’t consider that they may not respond in the way he wanted doesn’t absolve him from responsibility for causing the fracas to begin with.
Anyone who has any experience with any large organization knows that if you want something done in December, you have to start talking aobut it months in advance. That’s just how it works. And that’s pretty much as true in the private sector as it is in the public sector–with one difference. The private sector, when properly motivated, does have the option of expending large wads of cash to get something done immediately. And not being govenment organizations, they’re not under any legal or moral obligation to take the time to have public meetings and listen to streams of public comment. Public organizations typically don’t have that option.
It kills me to hear people who want government to be accountable, inclusive AND efficient. That’s simply unrealistic.
The rabbi wanted a menorah added next to the trees. You guys need to listen to more than MSNBC.
What’s so funny is the Jews don’t believe Jesus Christ was/is/always will be the Son of God. So why is the rabbi’s nuts tight in his jock?
BTWYS Moonbat!s Merry Christmas!
What – listen to FAUX NEWS – WE DISTORT – WE DECIDE? Thanks but no thanks. MSNBC or nearly ANY OTHER LEGITIMATE news source is fine. If I want republican lies, I can go to Fox or the GOP website.
TJ – I am not sure – but I think his threat was that he would sue to add the Jewish symbol. I still think that was the wrong approach.
The Christmas tree is not a religious symbol – while the Menorah is.
As I already said, this is all stupid anyway. The airport should have just added the Menorah and left the tree. Now they have played into the hands of the mindless morons on the right who NEED an ememy to motivate their hatred. And the Seattle Port gave it to them.
I think we should celebrate Christmas just the way the Pilgrims did back in the Plymouth colony. We celebrate Thanksgiving like they did, so why not Christmas, too. And nobody can question their Christian credentials. Let’s do it just like them.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16...../newsweek/
Looks like Gellman agrees with me.
Yawn; nobody’s throwing the Jew in the well here.
Libs first wanna get rid of all references to Christmas…really all except what we do inside the church walls..
Now goldy “cleverly” twists the “anti secularization” as really being anti Jew
So Goldy, when i get pissed cuz Sen Dimbulb (patty) refuses to call the tree a Christmas tree…i’m actually an anti-semite?
Naw, that dog don’t hunt..
Let me see if I have this straight: The Port of Seattle put up Xmas decorations without having a policy in place and, when confronted, the Port’s lawyers were either too lazy to verify the Menorah precedent or too incompetent to defend a lawsuit in court.
I’m guessing that these Rabbis committed the ultimate sin – they failed to go away after the Port decided to ignore them. In the mind of Port officials, they deserved to be publicly humiliated. That was the extent of their thinking.
Everyone has missed the real issue which is a secular lack of respect for faith. The Rabbi never anticipated they would remove the trees because he assumed the Port of Seattle respected faith, including his.
Goldstein, Stein, Loeb, Silverstein, and Lowenstein, ESQs, standing by to sue anyone for anything!!!!!
I’m in agreement with David Aquarius at #3. “Christmas” was a way of “selling” Christianity to the Pagan tribes of Northern and Western Europe: it fit in nicely with the Winter solstice. That Christmas tree stuff is related to the Germanic tribes and their beliefs. All that “deck the halls with boughs of holly” is realted to some Pagans who believed the Holly King ruled the second (winter) half of the year, while the Oak King took over at the Summer Solstice.
I like Christmas as a good time for enjoying food and drink and gifting, but’s that’s all it really is. It has far more to do with Eurpoean Paganism than it does with Jesus.
BOSSIER CITY, La. (AP) – A pit bull puppy chewed off four of a baby girl’s toes while the child’s parents slept, police here said Monday. The parents were booked on charges of child desertion and criminal negligence and were being held in the Bossier Parish Jail pending an initial court appearance. [……………………………………This MUST be Bush’s fault because he doesn’t care about black Democrats in LA after Katrina and not enough taxpayer’s funds were given to the black Democrat victims.]
Goldy:
I heard the Rabbi’s lawyer on the Dave Ross show yesterday. Ross asked him point blank right off the bat, “Did you threaten to sue?” or something that straight-forward. The lawyer would not deny it. In fact, when Ross asked him if he had drawn up legal papers for filing suit, he wouldn’t deny that.
I had kind of figured the Rabbi had had his lawyer write a letter threatening to sue, but after listening to the lawyer on Ross’s show it sounds like the lawyer may have drawn up the legal papers to file and then SHOWN them to the Port’s people, serious in-your-face hard-ball lawyering. If that wasn’t the case then leaving this impression was a serious public relations blunder.
The Rabbi can (however truthfully) deny all he wants that he threatened to sue, but if his lawyer won’t deny it then I have to figure the lawyer did things for the Rabbi that the Rabbi didn’t fully understand and is covering his ass by being shifty.
I can’t help but think this lawyer took the Rabbi down some negotiating path that the Rabbi didn’t understand the ramifications of very well. And I don’t think the lawyer understood the political landscape well enough to be advising a client on how to achieve his objective in this kind of situation. [The lawyer sounded as if he thought he was negotiating expensive construction contracts with other sleazy shifty lawyers and was then shocked to wake up and find he was in the middle of a case that had as a major component the negotiating of public relations ramifications.]
Was the Port playing hard-ball public relations in response to hard-ball lawyering or were they just panicked?
Brenda:
Putting up a Menorah was not a precedent, it was part of one option they could have taken in response to what they understood as a legal threat. Defending a lawsuit in court was not something they were too “incompetent” to do, but rather an option they didn’t chose because it could cost [hundreds of] thousands of dollars, whatever the legal precedents. Avoiding going immediately to court when one doesn’t fully understand the ramifications is not incompetence, often it is common sense.
WOW. IT LOOKS LIKE THE LGF AND (UN)SP CROWD HAVE TRULY GONE OFF THE DEEP END.
AS FOR MWS – HE WAS ALREADY THERE.
The Christmas Trees are going back up at the Seattle Airport. The rabbi is blaming the whole thing on his lawyers [Rosenstein, Stein, Loeb, Goodmanstein, and Lowenstein, ESQs]. I love it when people blame things on their lawyers.
Jesus Christ folks… can you read? What did I write?
I didn’t write that he didn’t threaten to sue, I wrote that he didn’t threaten to sue to remove the trees. But you know, just like in the way people read the initial press accounts, people choose to read into things whatever they want.
The public came away from the initial story believing that some rabbi threatened to sue to remove the christmas trees if the port didn’t put up a menorah, and he gave them only two days to comply. In fact, this whole thing started six weeks ago, legal precedent says that a menorah is an acceptable secular symbol, and but the port officials were intransigent. So they eventually threatened to sue to get their menorah put up.
As for those who dispute my main thesis, that the war on christmas crap ends up arousing anti-semitic sentiment, just read the KING-5 comments. It doesn’t matter what the intent is, that’s the inevitable result. How many Jewish kids are gonna be ostracized (or get the shit kicked out of them) at school this year because FOX News is reaching for a couple extra ratings points?
“never threatened to sue”? The rabbi may not have threatened to sue, but his lawyer did.
Review his appearance on the Dave Ross show. He was extraordinarily confrontational, extremely evasive (especially as to how short the fuse on his threat was), and expressed the view that his adversary (the Port, not Mr. Ross) had no option but to cave.
The Port had options, of course, and it probably chose unwisely (as did the rabbi in his choice of counsel).
The rabbi’s attorney threatened to sue, presenting this threat in the form of an immediate showdown, and it blew up in his face. The premise of this post does not stand up to scrutiny.
Goldy @ 21 — The complaint lodged and the relief sought was absolutely conditioned on the presence of the trees. No trees, no cause of action. Tree removal may not have been plaintiff’s preferred remedy, but is certainly relieves the cause of action.
It’s simple word-weaselry to claim nobody threatened to sue to remove the trees.
P.S. Goldy: I know the anti-semitic rants are frightening.
However, I do not believe that the decision BY THE PORT to remove the trees was a spontaneous one-sided anti-semitic plot to discredit the Rabbi and Jews everywhere.
I don’t think the Port officials would have decided to remove the trees if they hadn’t truly believed that the Rabbi’s lawyer was on the verge of filing suit and attacking the Port as anti-semitic.
My impression was that the Rabbi’s lawyer was just too adversarial to say something as clear as, “Public facilities around the country have had symbols of non-Christian faiths on public display during the winter holidays. We want a menorah. This is how they have done it elsewhere. How can we work together to get it done like that here?” There is another kind of lawyering that likes to push to the edge, assuming that the “negotiating partner” doesn’t want to fall over with you. But to be good at that kind of lawyering, one needs to know where all the edges are and how close they are , OR have the objective be soo important that you are willing to fall over rather than fail to achieve it. I think the alternative “working together to solve problems” type of lawyering would have better served the Rabbi.
I don’t think this is a victory for the Port, and I doubt they really see it as one.
Unfortunately, the way the two sides played this out, it does appear to be a public victory for the Christianist anti-semites. Way to go Port executives and Lawyer-man!
And what about the question of whether it’s constitutional or ethical to use the tax revenues of a government agency (the port) to put up seasonal decorations that represent what has become, after all, a Christian set of themes, regardless of their origins?
As someone with a Norse background, I rather like the Jule stuff. On the other hand, as an atheist, I don’t have much trouble questioning the validity of governmental display of religious icons.
What this really shows is that we need real oversight on the running of SeaTac and the Port of Seattle.
yes, we read what you wrote:
The Port assumed that he would sue, not because of his religion, but because of the legal threats.
Greg:
Leaving aside the question of whether public facilities should ever put up ANY decorations at all, I think having holiday decorations up during the winter season probably helps significantly with keeping customer’s attitudes positive during a time when the larger number of travelers means there are likely to be a lot more hassles and inconveniences while traveling. Plus, more tickets can be sold for higher prices, over the short and long term, if people see the travel experience as part of the holiday experience rather than as a dreary time-out from the (artificial?) good cheer of the season.
Some of those BIG New York-style menorahs would add a lot to the fun.
On the subject of fun holiday decorations, some large Chinese New Year exhibits with dragons and fat babies would be entertaining too if it wasn’t two months further out.
I have to say I agree with goldy and roger rrrrrrrrabbit
There is anti-semetism out in the world. It is unfortunate that the story wasn’t reported correctly….And it seems there are always folks wainting for any chance to pile on a story like this. But the true accountability lies with the rabbi and the port commisioner.
1. If you want a menorah, why not start the discussions in July? Why wait for the absolute busiest travel season to start this process. Better yet, how about acknowledging that you have started the process late and would like to submit the request now, for next year…
I heard the Dave Ross interview with the lawyer, he was evasive, curt, abrasive, and if ever there were someone itching to pull the trigger on a lawsuit, dude was it..
The involvement of such an individual in the process was unecessary. the rabbi said that he wasn’t getting timely response from the port. Too Bad! Start earlier next time. Don’t call Mr. I’m drawing up a federal lawsuit…..
2. The port, if you believe their own press releases, is more focused on safety and operational efficiancy during the busy travel season, and doesn’t have time to address the issue this late in the year. Fine, then very nicely inform the rabbi that the menorah will certainly be added to next years displays and thank him for his request. Then STICK TO THAT VERY LOGICAL AND INCLUSIVE DECISION. Don’t be such babies and throw a tantrum and spite everyone by deciding to remove all holiday decorations. Explain the busy season, thank him for the request, that it is important but will need to be addressed for next season. Done.
Sorry Goldy I missed the nuance of threatened to sue to remove the tree v. threatened to sue.
I still say he shouldn’t have threatened to sue. That one step started all the shit.
Not that I really care about religion or anything.
I’m just saying…
Gee, as I’ve stated before, I’m an Evangelical Protestant, and all I can think of after two to three days of news items and radio-talk-show re-hashing of this rather minor news item is:
“Much Ado About Nothing”
(with apologies to William Shakespeare).
Look, for me Christmas is a mixed religious and secular holiday. For religious significance, we go to church, and maybe read the nativity story from the Gospels on Christmas eve, and we remind our children that the gifts they receive are reminders of (a) the gifts the magi gave to Jesus, and (b) the gift of Jesus which God gave to mankind.
But it is also a secular winter festival, co-opted by the early church to replace the winter solstice festival, incorporating Germanic and Scandanavian traditions such as having a yule log, decorating a tree, and bringing evergreen boughs and candles into the home to provide a sweet smell and festive atmosphere. These things have no real religious significance, but are merely part of a winter festival, and attempt to break up the darkest days of the year with light, good food (and drink), and visits from neighbors, friends, and extended family.
More recent additions to the tradition includes the expansion of the Santa Clause myth, breaking out largly in the print media in the 1880’s, and popularized by many commercial outlets in the 20th century, such as Coca-Cola. While Santa Clause can be given some religious significance by relating it to the spirit of anonymous gift-giving (giving without expectation of worldly reward), it is primarily commercial, pushed by stores and businesses. Now the month between Thanksgiving and Christmas is expected by stores to return one-third to one-half of their yearly profit.
Some of the more recent “Christmas” traditions from the 1940’s through 1960’s have no real religious connection at all. This includes “Frosty the Snowman”, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer”, and songs including “White Christmas”, “Walking in a Winter Wonderland”, etc. Many of these originated from Jewish composers who enjoyed the holiday season as much as the rest of us, but wanted to join the celebration without having to join the Christian religion.
The same thing has occured to the Easter holiday, to a smaller extent. The religious story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus has been morphed into a joint holiday with the earlier pagen spring/fertility rituals, celebrated now by an easter bunny (a familiar fertility symbol, for obvious reasons) which gives away decorated eggs (the decorations symbolizing spring flowers, and eggs symbolizing, again, fertility). And the commercial interests have also grabbed hold, not losing an opportunity to sell cards, stuffed bunnies, easter baskets, and lots of candy.
So this causes a lot of confusion in the minds of many. Christmas has become a mixed religous/secular/commercial holiday, and every person or family tends to place its own emphasis on the appropriate ratio to be placed on the different elements. I know some Evangelicals who fight to keep it strictly religous, to the point of excluding any inclusion of Santa Clause or gifts in the holiday. Another family I know, athiests, don’t have a problem with having a Christmas tree in their house, exchanging presents, and playing/singing Christmas songs, arguing that its not really a religous holiday at all.
But I can understand that someone who is not Christian might see a Christmas tree as (a) a religous symbol, and (b) a reminder that they are in a religious, numerical, cultural, political, and economic minority. In that context, it kind of defeats the spirit of the holidays, doesn’t it?
So where does this leave us with the SeaTac airport problem? Yes, the Airport and Port Directors handled this very clumsily. And the fact that this particular Rabbi won’t file a suit this year doesn’t mean that other’s will not also. As a government-funded facility which handles hundreds of thousands of visitors from a multitude of countries and religions, it should remain religiously neutral. Perhaps some evergreen bunting and ribbons would be sufficiently “secular”, without requiring that we call it a “Christmas Tree”?
And I don’t think the problem is solved by adding a Menorah. Once we get on that boat, will we then be adding Kwanza symbols, perhaps an Islamic symbol (do they really have one?) and one for every other group that pops their head up and asks for inclusion. Then ask the Evangelical Christians and Orthodox Jews how they would feel about sharing a display with a Voodo or Wiccan symbol, carefully staged so that none has prominence over the others (implying also that each are equal to the others)?
So my vote – the Port should have thought about this much, much, earlier, and if they must decorate for the “holiday season”, they should do so in a purely secular fashion. We can display Christmas Trees in our homes, private businesses, and churches if we so choose.
But what about Goldy’s view, that this is really an attempt to stir up a backlash against the Jews? I really don’t think so, at least not from an Evangelical Protestant perspective. Sure, there are lots of anti-Semites who will jump on any chance to spew hatred at the jews, and they wouldn’t allow an opportunity such as this one pass them by. But among most modern Evangelical Christians, real anti-semitism is rather rare.
Instead, there is a strong feeling of connection with the Jewish “roots” of the Christian religion, with a lot of emphasis on undestanding the Jewish culture at the time of the 1st Century in order to understand the teachings of Jesus and the writings of the New Testiment. In addition, the most common Evangelical interpretation of the Book of Revelation (the last book appearing in the Christian Bible) says that end the end time, the world will be arrayed against the Jews, but that the Jews will prevail upon the 2nd comming of Christ, and all that oppose them will be destroyed (sent into the “black pit” with Satan). So there is a strong tendency upon Evangelicals to want to be on the side of the Jews (allied with them) when that happens. Hence, therefore, the strong Evangelical support for the security of the State of Israel, overriding the interests of Palestenian/Arabic nationalism.
But if not the Jews, then against whom is the “War on Christmas” directed? My own opinion is that it is more political than anti-semetic. The Republicans/neo-conservatives have persisted in creating a “straw-man” of the typical Democrat/liberal, who they wish to portray as athiests, anti-Christian, weak “bleeding-hearts”, pro-criminal, homosexual, etc. But if Democrats are so week, ineffective, and lacking in common-sense as Republicans claim, then they would not be much of a threat, would they not? So Republicans have to counter that they really are a threat, arguing that they are imposing their cultural values upon the rest of Americans, with the help of “liberal judges”. The strategy is simply an attempt to create a wedge issue which engergizes their base and deamonizes the opposition. Its not so much the Jews at whome they want to direct the blame. Instead they want to place the blame on a much more detested opponant – the hated “treasonous” gentiles who “should be” Christians, but have turned against their own people.
I would like to see the Port put the atheists’ atomic symbol on the top of the Christmas trees. That would look really cool.
In general, the whole “War on Christmas” issue is a rather trivial one, but the Republicans seem to be going back to their old bag of tricks to try to re-build their base. Having proven that they cannot govern when given control of all three branches of government, they are returning to what they do best – trying to play the “victim”, and placing blame for everything on the Democrats.
I heard a Republican yesterday commenting about how much worse the situation in Iraq has gotten “now that the Democrats are in charge”. He was just repeating what he had heard on some talk-radio station. Aside from the fact that the Democratic House and Senate haven’t even been sworn in yet, the Republicans are still in charge of our armed forces and foreign policy, and the Republican Congress just closed its doors over the weekend, I wish I had a a football referee’s yellow flag so I could call them for a “false start”.
@33 In my view there are too many people out there who are willing, and eager to continue the myths that the jews own the media, hollywood, diamonds, gold, etc. etc. etc….and look for issues like this to exploit their anti semetic puke.
What if there were a bunch of menorahs displayed at the port and this same issue occured when a priest or pastor requested a nativity scene, or tree? Would there be the same venemous outrage against the “christians”?
the “pile on” and “attatchment” of this rabbi’s actions to a greater anti-semetism is what bothers me.
I don’t think that there is a majority of people who feel anti-jew. But those who are, sure are loud!
Funny, you still see wingnuts blaming Bill Clinton for everything that goes wrong, in the economy and foreign policy. Despite the fact that he has been out of office for six years. And despite the fact that when he was President, Republicans controlled the Congress for six out of the eight years he was in office.
Yet now they are already blaming the Democratic Congress for its inability to wave a magic wand and fix the mess created by Bush and the Repubican Congress, even before they take office?
Caution: humor
Hey, you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few Jews…
So are you saying anonymous blog comments are representative of the sentiment of the general public?
(expletive deleted)
Another specious argument in a vain attempt link Fox News to anti-semitism. I find it ironic that you find time to look through the King 5 blog comments, yet don’t spend any time commenting on the Holocaust “conference” going on in Iran. Your attempt to paint anti-semitism where it isn’t only draws attention from where hatred of Jews is really going on. Shame on you Goldy.
I think that
a) The Port of Seattle (and other public entities) should never have favored a particular religion in the first place and should have NO religious displays at all. They were correct to remove the trees and should have left them down. If you want to celebrate your own religious fantasies on private property, knock yourself out.
b) Those who use the imaginary “War on Christmas” as a rhetorical cudgel do so to attack any convenient enemies, and not one group specifically. I am sure they would cheerfully use this against “liberals” in general, Democrats, any church-state separatists who don’t fall into the first two categories, Jews, Muslims, immigrants…you get the picture.
39 CF
No, he said that “the war on christmas crap ends up arousing anti-semitic sentiment.” And among those whose comments we read, it is quite clear that this statement is true.
Um, Bill “I am the King of the War on Christmas” O’Reilly regularly features the WoC on his Fox News Network show. Did you not know this?
IOW, pal, Fox News is clearly linked to the War on Christmas, which is in turn has been shown here to be a topic that brings out anti-Semitism in a number of people. QED, baby.
Aside from hatred, one characteristic virtually all of the posters quoted above shares is an inability to write coherently in English. Ironically, of course, this crowd represents the “English-only” faction of the rightwing. You’d think these folks would become a bit more versant in the language they propose everyone speak by law. Illiteracy seems to be such a common attribute of rightwingers. Historical revisionism is a like attribute.
5 ConservativeFirst says: … it’s little evidence that there’s some anti-semitic component to those that believe that Christmas (and their beliefs) are under attack. 12/12/2006 at 5:39 am
I agree. The “War on Christmas” is entirely a figment of the imaginative wingnut noise machine. A bogus construct invented to discredit liberals, who invented the idea of Christmas in the first place. (If Santa was a Republican, he’d go down chimneys empty-handed and come back up with all the kids’ toys, load up his sleigh, and drive back to the North Pole with the loot.)
Based on the anti semetic comments posted at King Five, do these people really think they are any different than the Muslims that get all excited by comments that the Pope makes, or cartoons by the Danes? It just goes to show that religion is the easiest thing to get people to redirect their problems towards a “Strawman” Thank you to the Bill O’Reileys and the Muslim Allahs for working the same power scheme.
Those comments from King5 are very sad and disturbing to me. Is this how people feel in this so-called liberal and tolerant community?
http://www.homesteadbook.com/blog
Goldy’s sources are Henry Ford from 1921 (and dead since 1947). In addition he provides quotes from an anonymous blog thread, which, for all we know, could be the work of a few people maybe even one person. Neither source makes a strong case that the current “War On Christmas” causes a general increase in anti-semitism.
I’m aware of O’Reilly’s genaral position on this issue. Although through secondhand sources, since I don’t watch his show. Do you watch it? Or are you speaking from secondhand accounts yourself?
Nice attempt at logic, but “shown here to be a topic that brings out anti-semitism” is a weak argument if all you are going to base that argument on is the aforementioned sources.
Did you not know that Iran is having a Holocaust “conference”?
http://abcnews.go.com/Internat.....id=2715610
This is an example real anti-semitism, not the manufactured kind Goldy is pushing here. If you want condemn a “war” on something, condemn the war on Jews being promulgated by Iran.
The holiday tree is a secular symbol. It becomes religious only if Christian ornaments or those of other faiths are placed upon them. The holiday tree was an approved public symbol during the Soviet Union, which was an atheistic and anti-religious regime. The trees at Sea-Tac are holiday trees without any religious decoration. It is perfectly legal for the government to display secular symbols in public places, such as holiday trees, Santa Claus, reindeer, flashing lites, Frosty the Snowman, etc.
The menorah, on the other hand, is a Jewish religious symbol. The government has no obligation whatsoever to display a religious symbol as part of an otherwise secular display. The rabbi’s demand was without merit and his threat of litigation was baseless.
It is sad that a bunch of anti-Jewish bigots have been spouting off about this controversy. Their comments are also just plain wrong. But two wrongs don’t make a right. The rabbi’s position was still wrong, even if someone bigots happen to disagree with him also.
reread says:
yes, we read what you wrote:
I suppose you can’t blame Port officials for just assuming the rabbi would sue, because after all, he is a Jew. And that’s what us Jews do, huh? [………….Reread,………Er, yes……That’s what Jews do! Clear enough????]
(my emphasis)
I find it interesting that you agree with me on an issue, then use it as a prop to attack “wingnuts” (a group in which you include me).
Christ invented Christmas, by being born. He is beyond political classification. You are no different than those “wingnuts”, like Pat Robertson, you despise for claiming the mantle of righteousness for their political beliefs because God is on their side.
Roger, once again, you are are what you loathe.
Goldy — what “legal precedent” are you relying on to display a menorah? The situation where a Christian religious symbol such as a Nativity scene is displayed on public property? In that situation, it has to be balanced by other religious symbols — such as the menorah and symbols from other faiths — and secular symbols — such as holiday trees, Santa Claus, reindeer and Frosty the Snowman.
There is NO legal precedent to allow a menorah to be displayed as the only religious symbol in a public property display. Just like it would be wrong to display a Nativity scene or Ten Commandments as the only religious symbol. Nor is there any legal precedent to force the government to include religious symbols in an otherwise secular display.
Dammit Pope, with talk like that pretty soon we’ll have multiple “secular” statues of Lenin at the airport instead of just in commie land Fremont! Damn, godless commies!! Oh yeh, you’ll say, “They’re not commie because we won’t decorate them with red stars.” What a bunch of commie crap!
richard, i’m not sure what country you were raised in or under what religious influence, but there is no such thing as a secular “holiday” tree. even if you remove the religious aspect & just associate it with santa, it’s still a christmas tree. the christians, even non-religious ones, have co-opted the tree from the pagans. it is now a symbol of celebrating CHRISTmas.
i’ve never heard of muslims putting up a holiday tree in their home. the only jews i know who put up a tree are the ones from mixed marriages… where either the mother or father is christian. you are correct that if the port had only put up frosty the snowman then a menorah might not be as appropriate. a holiday tree, though, only exists in your mind.
GODY!!
Is that JCH posting at 48?!?!?!
He’s supposed to be banned for losing our bet. If that is JCH, the lying scumbag loser, please ban him from HA.
Thanks,
GBS
Jason @ 52
Even if no Jews or Muslims put a holiday tree in their home, this would not make the holiday tree into a Christian religious symbol.
They are far more people in this country that belong in the “Other” category (i.e. neither Christian, Jewish nor Muslim), that there are Jews and Muslims put together.
Do people in this “Other” category put holiday trees in their homes? I would imagine that they do! And there are probably far more “Other” households that will display a holiday tree this winter, than there are Jewish and Muslim households put together.
Calling a holiday tree a Christian religious symbol is like calling a bagel Jewish food. Christians may especially like holiday trees and Jews may especially like bagels. But eating a bagel doesn’t mean you are a Jew and displaying a holiday tree doesn’t mean you are a Christian.
Come now Richard…
In County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union, 492 US 573 (1989)The U.S. Supreme Court reiterated is “plastic reindeer” rule that within a context of diverse and secular ornaments a menorah might not be considered a religious symbol violating the establishment cause.
46 CF
Again, you drag out a straw man and proceed to pummel him to death.
If only the post had claimed “a general increase in anti-semitism.” Unfortunately for you, nothing could be less true. Again, I’ll quote what he, you know, actually said: “the war on christmas crap ends up arousing anti-semitic sentiment.” It is reasonable to assume that in most cases these sentiments are held by and “aroused” in anti-Semites, primarily, and that thus little or no net increase in anti-Semitism occurs.
The fear here, though, is that when anti-Semitic philosophical positions are voiced without rebuttal, they become more mainstream and accepted. I don’t think Germans are an inherently anti-Semitic people, for example, but look what happened to them.
And I should note that personally, while I do agree that the illusory WoC propaganda inflames anti-Semites, I don’t think is is per se anti-Semitic.
As for “quotes from an anonymous blog thread” that “could be the work of a few people,” yeah, I’m sure they’re all just kidding, like Ann Coulter.
16, 18, 21, 48 –
Okay, clearly these are the unmistakable rants of our old pal JCH, who after being exposed as a FAKE military veteran and a LI-AR agreed that if the Democrats swept the House and Senate this year he would never post on HA again.
This I.P simply needs to be blocked from the server.
I’ll admit that there was a time when all that Atlas Shrugs bullshit of his was sort of funny in a sad and pathetic way. Indeed, his enduring delusions based on 80’s television action/drama Magnum P.I. were delightful in their time. But JCH jumped the shark a looong time ago.
C’mon Goldy. Block his ass.
This is only a strawman argument if you believe than any source is a legitmate source. In Goldy’s case, both sources are weak, thus rendering the conclusions reached by using said sources to be weak as well.
The irony of your statement makes me laugh. Twice I’ve brought up the Holocaust “conference” in Iran, and twice you (or anyone else) has failed to even talk about it. No blogs from Goldy on this issue. Iran is a much greater threat to Jews around the world than some anti-semetic blog comments on a Seattle TV station web site. It appears that anti-Semitism is only important here when it can be used as cudgel against conservatives.
Damn, looks like I messed up the blockquotes, sorry.
Whine, whimper, whaaa, whaaa…
Read what a REAL jew has to say on the subject, then run back and cry some more.
December 12, 2006
The Jewish Grinch Who Stole Christmas
The dirty little secret in America is that anti-Semetism is no longer a significant problem in society; it’s been replaced by a rampant anti-Christianity.
In reading the contents of the comments from the King 5 blog something struck me.
Christians (at least the individuals who posted on the thread) can’t spell, can’t punctuate or form cogent sentences and show little regard for Christian values and are as ignorant and sanctimonious as the Islamofascists that they profess to hate.
Funny how that works.
Christian reminder:
Judge not,lest ye be judged. Glass houses, stones. Pot, kettle, black. I could go on but you get the point.
Christians (at least the individuals who posted on the thread) can’t spell, can’t punctuate or form cogent sentences and show little regard for Christian values and are as ignorant and sanctimonious as the Islamofascists that they profess to hate.
It makes one wonder if the “educated” snobs ever heard of a run-on sentence, doesn’t it?
Glass houses, stones. Pot, kettle, black.
It makes one wonder if the “educated” snobs ever heard of a complete sentence, doesn’t it?
Michael Medved, a respected Jew with a radio show airing nationally and based in Seattle had some comments on this episode. You can look at his web site (http://www.michaelmedved.com/) or this article he wrote http://michaelmedved.townhall......161c9bf635. Medved calls the threat to sue a mistake. His web site also links to Rabbi Lapin’s article, which sheds some more light on the whole situation. Lapin is a local rabbi with a fair following.
When someone threatens to sue over a christmas display, no matter what they want as a result, a prudent bureaucracy retreats to avoid spending money on attorneys rather than mission.
Thye rabbi’s attorney erred in mentioning “lawsuit”. The Port staff executed a quick duck-and-cover. Both parties said “OOOPS!”.
Snow tires and antifreeze are ordered in March for delivery in November. The rabbi might want to bear that in mind in dealing with bureaucracy.
Net of everything, Goldy seems to be an outlier among the prominant local Jewish community in his analysis and comment.
There is a time and a place for everything. The rabbi had a good idea, but poor execution.
I’ve always thought that if Christmas was celebrated in September like it should be (that’s when Jesus was born) the importance of Hannukah would dim to insignificance. And you can forget about Kwanzai.
Poster Child @ 55
Thanks for the citation to County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union, 492 US 573 (1989).
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/.....8;page=573
This case supports my position. The holiday tree is a secular symbol and is perfectly acceptable to be displayed without any religious symbols whatsoever.
The menorah is a religious symbol. It is okay to display a menorah next to a holiday tree under certain circumstances. But nothing REQUIRES that the religious menorah be displayed next to a secular holiday tree. It is perfectly okay to display the holiday tree by itself.
Interesting. There’s an op-ed piece in the PI today about Seattle’s segregated history written by a UW history professor. It is painfully sad to read but what is worse, like the vitrol being aimed at the Jews in this case, are the comments on the piece. Lots of people with the “get over it, there’s no more slavery, I knew a black person once” lingo. What’s really interesting is the number of people willing to sign their names. I guess you have to give them credit for being honest (but that’s it).
I sometimes wonder what our founding fathers would think of our country.
Richard Pope @ 65
WADR ,,, Hannukah is no more religious than the Xmas tree. I am a Jew but also an aetheist and I celebrate Hannukah because, as a Jew, it is part of MY culture just as the bush is part of yours.
The Xmas tree celebrates the solstice, part of roman and therefore Christian state religion for about 2500 years. Hannukah celebrates our victory over Antiochus .. a real event.
Does it also have religious significance, yes but it is pretty minimal .. probably less than Thanksgiving. Come to think about it, next time I see a turkey at SeaTac in Novemeber, I am going to sue unless they also put up a Succah. Or do you think our harvest festival is also to religous to be part of the general culture?
As am American, as opposed to a Christian, I would hopw you would support including all of our cultural holidays in this season. Come on Richard. jin with me … lets dance around the Menorah and celebrate how a small people beat the shit out of Antiochus!
@54 Richard
Eating bagels does not make one Jewish. I agree! But being born of a Jewish mother or deciding to join the Jewish people DOES. We do have a religion, a very simple one based on monotheism AND a strict ethical code. Judaism teaches that the ethics exist and must be followed, whether you believe or do not believe in the Deity.
So, I am Jew. My wife is a Jew. Our kids are Jews. We have a culture, just like the majority. You are welcome to eat our bagels and even light the Hannukah lights ..
a solution …
It seems to me to be very simple, since the majority of Americans are women, Seatac should redecorate in chintz and ruffles. If this bothers those of you who are macho. go find your own airport.
Terry Jay @63,
Who the fuck are you to claim that Michael Medved and Daniel Lapin represent the broader Jewish community? Just shows how little you know about Judaism or the Jewish “community.”
They no more represent the Jewish community than me or Rabbi Bogomilsky. Or you, for that matter.
FYI, Lapin, who you describe as a local rabbi with a fair following, is a neo-con toady, intimately caught up in the whole Abramowitz scandal. He’s lucky he’s not in jail. And Medved is buddies with Lapin since their days together in LA.
Neither Lapin or Medved have any more standing to speak for Jews or Judaism than Bogomilsky, a junior Lubbavitcher rabbi… a sect which, when it’s not seeking to put menorahs in public places, seems to see its main mission as “converting” us reformed and secular Jews to orthodoxy.
A war on Jews? How narcissistic to think it’s all about you, doll.
Bogomilsky was a crank. I’m as secular as they come and think that Christmas trees are goofy. Putting them up in governmentally funded spaces like port authorities opens an agency up to strange birds like him who want to put up something else as well. Best to avoid the whole thing entirely.
I think the airport made a wise decision to take the trees down until Bogomilsky backed down. They’re trying to land planes safely, screen luggage, go through people’s shoes…they’ve got enough to do without listening to whiny fools like this guy.
you have to admit that the hypocracy around here is getting SO THICK you could cut it with a knife.
you are worried that people are anti-semitic because they are upset that a rabbi butted into an american tradition?
but you aren’t upset that your progressive peeps are marching in throngs in cities all over the nation wearing palestinian headscarves and screaming “down with the zionists”??????and yet here are all you big bad know it betters not saying a damn thing about that…because they are democrats.well…the democrats liked hitler too.
what fools you are….all of you.
there was one funny comment in that whole thread of illiterate idiots though….
“See…I told you so…
Posted by: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at December 11, 2006 03:31 PM”
okay…that really made me laugh….at least someone has a sense of humor, twisted though it might be.
but it’s a thinker too.
the jews misjudged the climate in germany and i believe they are now too……….
Goldy:
I did not say they represented anyone; I said they are prominent. And I included you as prominent.
Enjoyed your response and found it quite enlightening. If the divisions in the Seattle Jewish population are anywhere near as deep as you portray them, imagine what they must be among those who are really serious about their faith.
Terry at 73
Remember that we have been a civilized culture for at least 3,000 years … a 1000 years longer than Rome and arguably 2,000 years older than most of Europe.
By the time Acquinas began to assimilate Plato into Christian thought, we had been living with Greek society for over a thousand years. Other parts of us, the Sephardim, have lived with Islam for 1400 years and developed somewhat different views than the Jews who lived in Eastern Europe, the Askenazim, over the last millennium or so. We even have brothers and sisters who have lived within Hindu and Coptic societies. Ethiopean Jews never experienced the destruction of the Temple or rabbinic Judaism. Not all Jews eat bagels!
Also, contrary to what most goyem think, we are NOT a religion. There is a Jewish religion but compared to Christianity or Islam, Judaism has almost no belief system. We have no common beliefs in heaven, hell, angels, demons, saints, etc. Individual Jews and Jewish sects may believe in those things, but even the most observant Jew will tell you that the only truth is that OUR God is one (whatever that means). We really, really do not care how many Gods the goyem have, as long as they leave us alone.
But we do have a shared history. The Hannukiah, for example, is a symbol of the Macabees defeat of Antiochus .. more like a fourth of July fireworks display than like a statue of the baby Jesus in a cradle. Our most important family holiday, Passover, celebrates the historic events of our escape from Egypt .. rather more like Martin Luther King Day than Easter. (The last supper was a Passover seder). Other holidays celebrate the Fall Harvest or the seduction of a Babylonina King by a Jewess, Queen Esther. I am not sure what Christian holiday compares with Purim, the celebration of Esther’s success!
Actually, we do not need to believe in anything to be Jews. I am a devout atheist, I am not sure about Goldy but I would be very surprised if he believes in the messiah to come or the existance of Garden of Eden. I have worked with two rabbis who were devout followers of Jewish law, but also convinced atheists. Like Lakota, or Lumni people, we inherit our memebrship in a people or acquire it by conversion.
If there is anything other than peoplehood that unites us, it is a commitment to ethics … from Alinsky and Gompers (great American labor leaders and civil rights activists) to the Lubavitcher Rabbi at the Airport, there is consistent idea that we should follow ethical rules. That said, there are many different schools on what those laws are. For example orthodox Jews accept all the laws in Deuteronomy PLUS a huge set of traditions enumerated by the Talmud as having been passed down by word of mouth since Moses. Eating kosher is as much a law as not stealing. For others, esp. the majority of Reform Jews, the idea of an ethical life is pretty much the same as mainstream humanism except Jews see it as central to our religion. A now very small group, the Karaites, rejects BOTH the Talmud and ethical humanism and claims adhere purely to the five books of Moses. These folks will not even heat a synagogue in Siberia on the Sabbath out of fear of the law.
Now back at Medved and Lapin. Neither is actually prominent in the Jewish community. They certainly have less of a following, for example, that the Lubavitchers. If anything there is a wide spread suspicion of their behavior and many of us are as embarrassed by these gonifs as an African American might be by Sharpton. Remember we have fought Xtain fundamentalism since it became the religion of the dominant state of Rome and began the 1700 yars of terrorism vs. us. In general we are suspicious of Xtain fundamentalists and Lapin.Medved’s uncritical acceptance of the extreme right of Xtianity is suspect at best.
Hope this primer is not too preachy.
goldy…thank you for this post. the gift that keeps on giving……like this little GEM.
behold….goldy does actually admit the truth …finally.
“But then, in any war, there’s always going to be collateral damage.”
so what are you bitching about in the iraq war, Hmmmmmmm?
may i suggest that instead of a big “D” after your elected officials names maybe we should just put a “EJTM” because let’s face it that’s your party’s motto…..THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS.
i call bullshit on you…………
Stephan Schwartz @ 74
Thanks for the explanation.
Is it possible for someone to be prominent by virtue of thier own activities, but not particularly prominent in a specific local community?
Medved has been a recognized movie critic for many years, and has a national radio program. Goldy has been a critic of Tim Eyman and tried to label Tim a horses ass, and now runs a blog by that name, and has a radio show locally. It is reported that Lapin has a congregation on the east side. Is it reasonable to label them as prominent? They are names recognized by many people.
As both you and Goldy have pointed out, there are enough divisions in the Jewish community to prevent anyone from ever being a spokesman. But that does not prclude them from being prominent.