The most exclusive kleptocracy in the world refuses to act.
A frantic, last-ditch attempt to forge a relief package for the auto industry collapsed in the U.S. Senate, dealing a giant blow to the immediate hopes of the Big Three.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada suggested the $14 billion wouldn’t be revisited until January. “It’s over with,” he said.
The talks, which appeared close to a deal several times, broke off due to a sharp partisan dispute over the wages paid to workers at the manufacturing giants.
Every time a bell rings an angel gets its wings regular Americans lose. Maybe the Senate can send workers an enrollment in a jelly of the month club.
According to the AP Story, they say it is the benefits that have UAW workers paid more than Toyota. On hourly wage alone, Toyota is more. Also, the Senate Republicans leading the fillibuster are from states with Volkswagen, Toyota and other foreign factories. Volkswagen is the socialist car, especially since Volkswagen means People’s Wagon. Now do all German transportation companies settle in Union un-friendly states? No, Siemens has a Rail Vehicle factory in Sacramento, California that is being expanded. It’s not to supply San Francisco MUNI, they buy Italian, not sure where they build the Breda LRVs to comply with Buy American Act provisions, though. Siemens supplies LRVs for several west coast Light Rail Systems(but not Sound Transit, KinkiSharyo-Mitsui of Japan does that, by the way, they also build Japan’s bullet trains), including Portland, Salt Lake City, Denver, and San Diego.
Of the Big Three, Ford seemed to be the one that was working the best to avoid bankruptcy, they did not change plans to re-tool truck plants to build American Versions of their European Models including the Ford Ka small car and Ford Transit Connect van.
The Republican minority in the Senate now stumbles off into the sunset with one last sharp and damaging jab at the American workers, at the Dow, and at the future of our manufacturing base in this country. Merry Chrsitmas, McConnell, whom I saw smugly mugging for the cameras. Waht a fuc-head. Well, he is soon to be totally irrelevant as he will find that 2-5 Republicans who care about our country and our economy will abandon his filibusters on cloture votes time after time come the new year.
Of course, their opposition was based on the UAW not accepting sharp cuts in wages and health care for 2009 and destruction of Union contracts. Always looking out for the working families of America. These are the same assholes who would not allow any limits on multimillion dollars of wages and bonuses as part of the Wall Street bailout.
They have a special circle of hell reserved for them.
The Republican minority in the Senate now stumbles off into the sunset with one last sharp and damaging jab at the American workers, at the Dow, and at the future of our manufacturing base in this country. Merry Chrsitmas, McConnell, whom I saw smugly mugging for the cameras. What a fuc-head.
Well, he is soon to be totally irrelevant as he will find that 2-5 Republicans who care about our country and our economy will abandon his filibusters on cloture votes time after time come the new year.
Of course, their opposition was based on the UAW not accepting sharp cuts in wages and health care for 2009 and destruction of Union contracts. Always looking out for the working families of America. These are the same assholes who would not allow any limits on multimillion dollars of wages and bonuses as part of the Wall Street bailout.
They have a special circle of hell reserved for them.
The UAW should have hit back, say if they want them to have their wages in line with Toyota, bring up the Toyota CEO’s Salary, I heard it is less than GM’s.
Funny thing was they reported that Toyota paid an average wage of $30, UAW folks only get $29…oops. Of course the benefits for retired folks is what they’re really arguing about (the Big 3 never got around to funding those accounts, so they tack it onto their “hourly rate” to make the UAW look bad) – the Repugs want to kick the old folks out in the snow.
CNN Money reported that Bush has already told the GOP Senators that if they don’t cough up the money – he will, from TARP funds.
I hope CNN Money is right, but I have lost faith in the financial media people lately. Although WaMu had problems, the Financial News Media’s reports on that did not help matters much.
The same reason I reluctantly support a possible bailout(probably will happen next year) is the need to maintain some industry here. If Amtrak ever managed to make a massive buy of new rolling stock, it will be from foreign companies. Budd and Pullman-Standard were the last two major railcar builders in the U.S, they both bowed out in the early 1980s. Their products still run, though, some being sold second-hand to start-up commuter rail services.(In the case of the BUDD RDC’s in Dallas, third hand). Although in the rail case, foreign companies might be better(as they have more experience), I just prefer it for National Security. Remember in 2002-2003 the anti-French rhetoric? The Acela Express in the Northeast is made by a consortium of Bombardier and Alstom. One Canadian, one French, and two companies that did not go into Iraq with us. Don’t want to leave Amtrak vulnerable to external US Politics. Bad enough just fighting for funding is an uphill battle.
There was a time when Nations feared our Industrial Might, and what could happen if it were mobilized for all-out victory.
Here is the story from CNN MOney
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/1.....2008121123
Do we really need any more prooof that Republicanism is on the verge of extinction?
Do we really need any more proof that D’s will get the supermajorities in both houses they nearly got this year at the 2010 mid-terms?
Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt are weeping at what BushCo have wrought.
Sure liberals, 61% of the country is against the auto bailout. 39% are for the bailout. – Pew Research Center. They’re non-partisan!
The UAW had all of 2009 to work on wage reduction. So now they live their choices.
Why is the will of the people mostly ignored by Donkey?
And… who led the opposition?
Ohio Senator George Voinovich, whom you libtards used positively on the Iraq War – remember?
He said the deal sucked. George and others said it was too weak in the car company demands and contained unacceptable environmental mandates.
The Winners in this are the American People.
The unions destroyed the Big 3 with their unrealistic greed and a multi-billion dollar bailout by the government/U.S. Taxpayer is merely putting a band-aid on a .50 Cal sniper shot to the chest.
This is about economic darwinism….you leftist kiddies like Darwin, right? Deal with it.
The unions haven’t destroyed the Big 3. Management did.
UAW wages and benefits, when compared using the same analysis across the board (i.e., comparing apples to apples), are comparable with the “transplant” auto companies operating in the U.S. (Honda in Ohio, Nissan in Tennessee, etc.).
But hey, according to the same Republicans that are blocking this auto bailout bill, it would be UNFAIR for the government to insist on salary and bonus restrictions on BANKERS before they received THREE TIMES as much bailout money, with virtually no strings attached!
I now despise Republicans. They are evil. Yes, I said it. EVIL. They only respond to greed, they only reward greed, they only worship greed. Bankers get millions, workers get nothing.
When the economy collapses, I will blame Republicans as we become a third world nation.
No more tolerance. No more mercy. Nothing for republicans. Treat them the way they treat the US.
Those same Refucklickers don’t mind pumping billions of tax dollars to subsidize the building and ongoing operation of foreign plants located in the US (in their states). With the chimp Bush covering their ass for them, they’re free to pose in that pathetic Kabuki theatre called ‘fiscal conservatism’ while looking tough to their in-bred constituencies. This is just as criminal as anything Bagojavich has done.
I’m from Indiana. I visit my family and friends there twice a year.
Trust me….this is the beginning of the end of the Republican Party having much influence in the Ohio Valley for a generation, perhaps two.
The state doesn’t produce many cars, but it produces parts aplenty. That’s what keeps many, if not most, of the small towns that make up the state alive.
And the Senate Republicans just put a knife to those communities’ throats.
Friends and relatives who thought I was nuts a few years ago for being so harsh about Bush and local Republicans (some of which are already taking it hard over previous situations like Delco) are going to be much more agreeable or a lot more sullen come this holiday, when I pay a visit.
You want to see what’s happened politically in New England hit Big Ten country, by all means, feel free.
You want to create an economic version of the Terri Schiavo incident, by all means, feel free.
But people will remember.
And vote accordingly.
Daily Kos had a good headline
Senate GOP: Let Us Destroy UAW, Or We’ll Destroy the Economy
Ok, on a personal level. What can I do? My first choice, of stalking the Republican senators trying to destroy the US economy and pelting them with dog feces every time they are in a public place, while very satisfyingly, will get me arrested and won’t change their votes.
What can I do personally, legally, to influence those evil people?
Great. Republicans have made me religious, Republicans have made believe in Evil.
The arguments advanced right-wing winguts on AM Talk Radio and Fox News are being proven to be complete bullshit with respect to UAW wages.
UAW workers NEVER received and AVERAGE WAGE of $70+ an hour, despite the insistence of Hannity and others. that figure was once advanced as a bargaining leverage by GM in it’s talks with the union, but it includes everything but the kitchen sink, including retiree benefits, employer-paid taxes, the cost of HR administration, etc.
The average pay of a UAW worker is $28.00 per hour. If that seems a little high, it’s because layoffs over the years have left Big Three automakers with a workforce with a lot of gray hair. But it’s actually on par with non-union auto workers.
And the UAW has been giving back benefits. In 2007, it started closing down it’s “job bank”, reducing it from 87,000 laid-off workers to only about 3,000 now (and declining). In addition, the 2007 bargaining agreement with Ford introduced a two-tier wage structure, and most importantly, the cost of retiree benefits would be substantially cut:
Source: FactCheck: Do auto workers really make more than $70 per hour?
Personally, I think the Democratic Senate Leadership has been wimping out on those filibuster threats. Just because the Republicans can manage to defeat a motion to limit debate doesn’t mean that the Democrats should just go home and fold up their tents.
Call them on it. Start debate, bring in some cots like they did in the civil rights legislation of the 1960’s, and make them stand up and talk until the Congress ends in January. The minute they run out of wind, or somebody who’s supposed to pick up the debate is late getting back from the background, call the question and take a vote. Make ’em talk all the way through Christmas Day, if necessary.
A few examples like that would go a long way towards actually getting something accomplished over the next two years.
So, if the price of making a car is 10% labor and 40% parts, then where is the other 50% going? And how does the UAW get blamed for that?
Another 531,000 first time claims for unemployment were announced this week, coupled with the 515,000 from last week. When are these scum up for reelection? Where’s the hitlist? I’m ready to start making donations.
@9, And for the dumbass above, 3/4 of Americans were against the Bank Bailout swindle, but the douche bags passed that. You’re culling the polls, most have it split. Not that polls mean shit anyway. Leaders need to do the right thing no matter what the masses might ‘think’.
@19, Harry Reid has to go as majority ‘leader’. What a pussy.
If Sen. Bob Corker (R-TENN) and auto industry executives think the UAW pay and benefits are so outrageous, then perhaps they would agree to limit their compensation to that level? And not just for one or two years, but for the rest of their lives?
Yeah, what is this bullshit that they just have to “say” they are going to fillibuster. Make them do it.
“Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) said yesterday on NPR that, in regards to an auto loan, ‘we’re not going to do it with the barnacles of unionism wrapped around their necks.’” (link)
Which is complete bullshit. How dare they insist on health care! We have CEO’s who need new yachts here! Try not giving lousy CEOs 4 million dollars to stay, and you might be able to save the industry.
Puddybud@9- 61% of Americans don’t like the bailout primarily because they want the money to go to restructuring the industry so it works and saving the jobs of workers. As it is, the bailout is a blank check, just like the banks got. We saw what the banks did with their blank check (save the workers? Staunch the market hemorrhage? HAR HAR HAR!), so voters naturally don’t want auto makers to have a blank check too. But to imply that most people don’t want the government to save the Big 3 is false. Most people agree that the government HAS to do something, but disagree that a blank check is the best route (as do I)
Those Right-to-Work state southern Republicans are in the pay of the foreign car manufacturers in their states.
So this came down to worker’s wages? With Wall Street CEOs and other executives making what they’re making?
I’m just too numbed to even be disgusted.
Its also worth noting that these same Repubs will fight and filibuster any major health care reform effort, too. They don’t want access to health care provided and assisted by the government, yet they also want to attack the unions who negotiated the security of their retirees to have health care and benefits. And, it was not the unions who chose not to fund, it was management, including while raking in huge profit margins in SUV heydays.
The Repubs are bereft of any ideas and are going extinct.
All you wingnuts out there?
Kiss your hopes for 2010 bye bye.
At least your chimp in the White House seems concerned enough. I never thought I’d ever say that.
Hey, I found out how Piper makes a living:
Non-Sequitur Cartoon 12Dec2008
(link is to “today’s cartoon”, so it may not be good for more than one day).
@9 Why should an economic disaster engineered be greedy Republicans by solved on the backs of workers? Why shouldn’t the Wall Street moguls who created this mess pay for it? I mean, c’mon, putz — the $29 an hour includes benefits, and amounts to $58,000 a year … would you work for that?
Republicans won’t be happy until (a) everyone except them is making minimum wage, and (b) there is no minimum wage. In other words, they think workers should donate labor to the cause of increasing their wealth.
My little legs are a gettin’ tired in the race to the bottom…. I hope the 1/10 if 1% that makes half the money in Amerika are happy with their tools…..
This is first day of the end of the GOP. \
Think about it. There are many different groups of voters. Two of the largest are working people, and people who can’t work. The Republicons just pissed on the workers today, and we all know how much they want to help folks that are hurtin’.
Goodbye GOP – – Goodbye Reaganomics
Lots of bedwetting and caterwauling by the usually Darwinian-thinking liberals. I guess the Darwinian theory doesn’t apply for some liberals who’d squeal if the bailout was approved or not because misery is the only liberal constant. Now you kids know that the UAW destroyed the business model and eventuallly the business. So it goes with economic darwinism…..you sink or you swim, just like the other small business people that don’t expect and don’t receive a bailout from the government.
The death of the big 3 will give rise to a business that will have a better business model and thus, a better chance of longevity provided Unions don’t kill them off as well (UAW should serve as an example of what not to do).
The US taxpayer is not responsibile for bailing out privately owned businesses so quit squealing in here about doing just that.
Grow up and move on kiddies, because economic darwinism is at work here.
Good for the Senate!
@32:
Nope – not Economic Darwinism.
Political realignment.
Perhaps long-term political realignment.
IT’S NOT THE “SENATE”…you fuck-headed ignoramus…it’s the American Worker hating rethuglicant Senators.
Bye Bye GOP was never more appropriate. Those short-sighted crapheads just sent their party swirling down the toilet.
When Darth Cheney tells them that without a LOAN…that’s L-O-A-N to you reality-challenged fuckwads…it will be “Herbert Hoover time”…you KNOW the consequences are dire.
Couldn’t happen to a better bunch of hypocrites.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....50479.html
@29 the $29 an hour includes benefits, and amounts to $58,000 a year
——————
No, it does not. See http://docs.google.com/View?do.....64fs7277ch
From this discussion:
“$73 an Hour: Adding It Up”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12.....38;emc=rss
As the author, David Leonhardt, writes:
———–
Let’s start with the numbers. The $73-an-hour figure comes from the car companies themselves. As part of their public relations strategy during labor negotiations, the companies put out various charts and reports explaining what they paid their workers. Wall Street analysts have done similar calculations.
The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.
The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word “compensation.” It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)
The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.
Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda’s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.
The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix — dividing those costs by the total hours of the current work force, to get a figure of $15 or so — and end up at roughly $70 an hour.
The crucial point, though, is this $15 isn’t mainly a reflection of how generous the retiree benefits are. It’s a reflection of how many retirees there are. The Big Three built up a huge pool of retirees long before Honda and Toyota opened plants in this country. You’d never know this by looking at the graphic behind Wolf Blitzer on CNN last week, contrasting the “$73/hour” pay of Detroit’s workers with the “up to $48/hour” pay of workers at the Japanese companies.
———
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/company/index.php
If the big three fail, there are small companies waiting in the wings to fill the void. If we keep bailing out these failing dinosaurs, we’ll never be free of them – and that includes the financiers and their ‘bailout’.
SJ Scorns Demicans
I listened to Senator Cocker (rep, Tenn) today. He seemed rather rational in his argument that the bailout proposed by the Bush/Dekm coalition was fatally flawed because it left GM with an unsustainable debt. If his numbers are correct, this proposal was more of an effort to protect bond holders and the pension fund than to help restructure GM. (I suspect Chrysler is a basket case).
As I understood him, the pension funds are going to be hit no matter what happens here. This means the taxpayers, who now underwrite PART of the funds, will be hit and that hit is going to be big. UAW retirees are going to be hit by a huge cut in their takehome to the guarantee level. Non-UAW folks may get really pissed that their taxes are bailing out the relatively highly paid UAW retirees.
BUT, the real issue, as Cocker preneted it, may be whether there is model that leaves GM and the union viable? Cocker’s proposal sounded the best I have heard: Squeeze bondholders to 35% or debt, do the same to pension fund, convert both to stock. This would result in a smaller company but one with a realistic debt level. The now smaller union would have an investment in the company’s future that could, IF the company does well, reduce the taxpayer contributions to the retirement fund. Not a win-win but perhaps a plan the shares the pain.
The most likely opponent would be the UAW … assuming that their goal now IS to let GM go into bankruptcy and maximize the eventual pension fund over the levels of the fed guarantee. This also would cut the number of jobs and force Detroit UAW workers to compete on an even footing with Tennessee’s non unionized workforce. Perhaps painful but isn’t this better for the country?
This issue, like so much else since Reagan, is hidden behind a miasma of misinformation. The conservatives spin the Union wages by adding in the pension debt. (In real wages and bennies Toyota and GM pay out similar amounts now). The dems wring their hands and talk of cataclysm and seem more driven by a new civil war, this one ironic in that once again the Union is Opposed to the Sout over a labor issue. The Bushies … well they never was a there, there anyway.
The real demon n all this is the LACK of leadership. Someone, presumably the real President whoever that is now, needs to gather the facts and present them as simply and clearly as Cocker did this AM.
While I remain an Obamist, this seems to me to be an occasion whre he could step in.
From “Talking Points Memo”
Cleary, the dumbass fuck-heads like “rick d.”, and “the puddybitch” don’t know shit.
This morning’s news….
Okay, maybe I exaggerated a bit – but only a bit. Just once, I’d like the local news to simply report acurately:
@41 Rujax!
And the viable alternative is?
Actually, the Detroit workers now are already at about the same level as the Tennessee workers. I suspect the real issues are how to protect the Unions. If Toyota pays as well as the new GM, why should union members pay dues?
The Cocker proposal, by making the UAW an owner, would seem to offer a possible answer.
Republicans want the Big Three to go into Chapter 11 so they can void the benefits under the Union contracts in the bankruptcy proceedings.
But touch CEO pay and benefits???? Not so much.
1 Breda? You mean the outfit that built the infamous “tunnel turkeys” for Metro Transit? I thought they were based somewhere in eastern Europe.
Then again, where the executive offices of a company are located and where the work is done can be completely separate things–witness how quickly a factory was set up here in the Northwest to assemble the Talgo trains for the Amtrak Cascades. I dunno about you, but I don’t think it matters much where Mahogany Row is as long as Americans get to do the real work. It doesn’t seem to matter much to the folks who work for Hyundai in Alabama that the big boss is an octegenarian in Korea.
To Republicans, that anything that says “union” on it is a Great Evil that must be destroyed, is essential dogma.
Look at the bogus argument that pensions are an “unfair burden” on industry. The implication of this is that a corporation can’t set money aside and invest it in any way that assures its growth will keep up with the projected liability. If you claim this, it implies that all the “ownership society” blather about how 401K’s, IRA’s, and all such are actually “better” for employees is a load of shit. If they can’t manage to do it, how do they expect you and me to?
The answer, of course, is that they don’t.
Psst, Rujax, the Republican Senators are part of the Senate.
So I say again, good for the Senate!
Here’s more about how ignorant these shitheads are:
http://www.newyorker.com/onlin.....-medd.html
Historically, automakers kept holding down pay increases by offering retiree health benefits in the future. The Union upheld their side of the bargain, working for lower current wages in return for a bigger long-term benefit in the future.
But the automakers always assumed that better days were in the future, so they put off funding the future benefits. Now they are having to pay them out of current earnings, so they are in trouble.
So last year the UAW stepped in and agreed to change the plan, accepting reduced future benefits (even though they have already been “earned”), in return for the automaker paying into a fund administered by the Union to pay for those future benefits.
But now the automakers say they can’t make those payments, and wants to instead contribute company stock.
As Enron workers learned, it’s really a bad idea to have your current employment, future retirement, and future health care all tied to a single source. Especially when the stock has almost no value, with the companies on the verge of bankruptcy. But they agreed to it anyway, showing a lot more teamwork and dedication to the company than the companies have shown to them in return.
Now a handful of Senate Republicans have decided to use this as an opportunity to grandstand, and come out against the Unions, insisting that this isn’t nearly good enough, that they have to reduce current wages too, even though they are already on par with the “transplant” companies (foreign companies building cars in the U.s.).
PSST…”the troll” is still an ignorant fool.
So when did it become “bad” for a man to work hard and make a living wage? I thought that was the “Promise of America”…what the fuck is WRONG with you people???
How many of us are independent business people?
How many of us market goods and services to a SHRINKING MIDDLE CLASS????
WHO are you idiots going to SELL to when NO ONE has any MONEY????
How HARD is this to understand??? The stupid just makes my head explode…
Here’s more about our favorite hypocrites…
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....103/672136
Nice maturity level Rujax! did your mommy teach you that vast vocabulary or are you still stuck on the 3rd grade playground?
Clearly the liberals here are confused. It has never been the Governments role to ensure that privately owned Companies succeed. The big 3 are no exception. Let’s deal with reality and admit it was a combination of mismanagement and excessive Union demands that destroyed these companies. It is not my problem nor any other taxpayers. Ergo, a bailout is not practical expenditure of my tax money. I’m not in the loan business, I’m not in the charity to privately owned businesses business, It’s not the governments role so stay the hell out of it.
Now, let the usual caterwauling, bedwetting and
infantile profanity spew forth in protest. Temper tantrums by the left are a dime a dozen.
One small victory that I hope spreads like a wildfire through the “right-to-work” South:
http://www.newsobserver.com/100/story/1330622.html
It took 16 freaking years to organize that one plant. 16 years of brutal union-busting by Smithfield.
After a while working people just aren’t going to take it any more and tune out the right wing bullshit.
UNION! UNION! UNION! UNION!
Ignorant wingnut whore @ 54
The adults here are talking about systemic ECONOMIC COLLAPSE dumbass!
It’s not just UAW jobs that are at risk. It’s the trucker who hauls resins and coatings to the plants. It’s the machinists who stamp out parts all up and down the Ohio Valley. It’s all the retailers who depend on money flowing from industry paychecks.
Where were you when Wall Street was bailed out with your tax money whore?
The whore called little Rickie Dumbass.
Meanwhile, in real news…did you see that Jen posed nude in GQ?
Nice catch as usual by rhp.
The Senate Republicans (mostly “right-to-work” southerners) by denying the big three and forcing them into bankruptcy (Wall Street as a ok with them) are just merely BUSTING the UAW!!
Business as usual for those ghouls.
Adults? Goldy’s usual site trolls spewing here are far from being adults as you prove in your rambling incoherent posts.
I guess the UAW should have thought about that before they cooked the golden goose that fed them. Still, it’s not the Governments role to bail out any entity. Nannystaters disagree of course, but they miss their mommy, so what else is new under the sun.
I wasn’t for that bailout either there, princess. I’m consistent unlike you. As for the last part, I did not receive a call from your mother, so I guess your incoherent babbling appears to be a character trait you possess.
54 Hey, Rickie-Poo…
“It has never been the Governments role to ensure that privately owned Companies succeed.”
THEN WHY ARE WE GIVING TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO THE CROOKS RUNNING THE “BANKS”? The Republican Senators cited are apparently just fine with that. This is even though the banks who’ve received all this largesse are continuing to fire their employees, shaft their customers and whine about how they’re going to need even more.
This boneheaded Car Bailout by Bush and the Democrats was ill-conceived. All it would do is delay the inevitable. LET THEM GO THRU CHAPTER 11!
And a Car Czar??? WTF! Would that be one of Obama’s Chicago-thug pals like Blago the Serb??
Do you really think there is someone out there who knows the Auto Industry well enough to effectively 2nd-guess those who do??
I saw the Union guys on TV this AM. They were pathetic. Not one of them could answer how this bailout would play out.
Let the free-market rule. If we bail them out, all we will get is more debt….and a nationalized Industry that will also fail.
59 – The people are tuning your kind out Dumbass. There was a great victory in North Carolina, the most hostile anti-union state.
Keeping on lying about workers. Keep on supporting management’s dumbass decisions.
There are dozens of people like you in every union shop – company suck-ups, company snitches. You sell out your fellow worker at every turn.
And if you’re an owner or manager then look at your employees or those that are left. Are they sucking at your asshole at every turn?
What would you rather have working for you? A friendly adversary or a slavish suck-up?
Little Ricky Dumbass, company whore.
re 59: If you really believe in the free market, then you cannot leave half of the business equation out of consideration.
Labor + Managment = Business
What’s happening now is because labor has been illegally squelched in the U.S. since Reagan.
However, I have no great love of unions. I remember wondering when I was young why certain jobs(union jobs) were out of my grasp and I knew weaker, dumber people who were getting the jobs. “Ya gotta know someone in the union,” I was told. In that sense, I also take a little bit of joy in the discomfort of the auto workers and their cake numbnuts jobs that they are overpaid to do.
17. Fed up with the Greedy Bastards spews:
Sounds like Governor Gregoire and the State Democrats saying: Let’s destroy BIAW and the Construction Industry/State Economy!
Bigot @ 61
Hah! I thought you said Blagojevich was a “pollack”!
Dumbass.
I addressed that FartArt. I don’t want anyone bailed out. I’m an economic darwinist. If they hadn’t bailed out the banks, you’d be squealing about people losing their houses and the economic collapse that would ripple throughout the Nation though, right Art??
You kids are so inconsistent it’s almost amusing. Cry and whimper is all you toddlers here at Goldy’s rescue mission for wayward whiners apparently know how to succeed at. You’re miserable cretins that look for an excuse to be unhappy….Gov’t bails out the banks, you’re unhappy, if they don’t, you’re whining “Why didn’t they help people keep their homes?”
Same with this one…if they did bail out the big 3, you’d be whining about spending all those billions to help out the “big business” you wail about incessantly in here and claim are evil.
Pick a side of the fence and stick to it, or just continue with the usual drivel, sniffle and gnashing of teeth.
This came from Business Week nearly 3 years ago….
Somehow, Detroit seems to think they are ENTITLED to control the auto industry…no matter how ineffectively.
The Unions feel they are ENTITLED to much higher wages & benefits than competitors.
It’s a model of arrogance on all levels.
Rather than compete…they move forward for 3 more years with a failed business model…which is now hitting the wall.
DUH!!!!!!!!!!!
There is no GUARANTEE for Detroit, the workers or anyone else if they fail to be competitive.
Thank God some Republican Senators see the stupidity of this bailout and stand up for the American Taxpayers!
FEBRUARY 13, 2006
NEWS: ANALYSIS & COMMENTARY
The Good News About America’s Auto Industry
Sure, Detroit is hurting. But in the Sunbelt, foreign carmakers are expanding, hiring, and stoking local growth
Nandra Barnes knows about dead-end jobs. For seven years, the single mother of three labored as a welder at an air-conditioning factory in Grenada, Miss., a gritty job that, at $11.50 an hour, left her living paycheck to paycheck. Job security? Forget it. With every dip in orders, the factory would lay off more workers. “It seemed like there were always cutbacks,” she recalls. Barnes was fearful of the day she would get the tap on the shoulder.
So when Nissan Motor Co. (NSANY ) opened a sprawling $1.4 billion assembly plant in nearby Canton, Barnes jumped at the opportunity and was lucky enough to snare one of the 4,200 jobs at the plant. Today, Barnes makes bumpers for Quest minivans and the four other models Nissan produces at the factory, where she earns more than $20 an hour — a princely sum not just for rural Mississippi but for almost any U.S. blue-collar worker these days without a union card or a college degree. Barnes, 39, even has enough money left over after paying the bills to give her three kids things that she never had — including, she hopes, a college education. “With this job I finally feel secure that I can take care of my family,” she says. “I plan on retiring from here.”
This uplifting auto industry tale is the one you’re not hearing these days: the good news story. It has been drowned out in the past year by the relentlessly downbeat headlines coming out of Detroit.
From Rasmussen:
Just 14% Say Federal Government Will Run Big Three Better
Tuesday, December 09, 2008
67 – Sigh… Been discussed already. Foreign makers don’t have the retiree and pension burdens and crappy health care benefits. Otherwise, wages aren’t that different.
More union-hating propaganda.
Was just watching CNBC–
Various Independent Analysts are saying if the Big 3 go into Chapter 11, the Auto Industry will not collapse.
This is Union “Chicken Little” scare talk.
The jobs will shift to competitors.
People will have to move.
Existing factories may come out stronger as Bankruptcy will make Union Contracts null & void.
This is clearly about heavy-handed Union tactics…fleecing American Taxpayers to retain uncompetitive jobs with an uncompetitive business model.
Yeah, I’m sure Michigan voters will never vote Republican again….so what?
Cynical @ 61 misses or ignores the point, as usual.
Exactly what would the company gain from going through Chapter 11 Bankruptcy? Apparantly you don’t know anything about Chapt. 11 Bankruptcy law, or you choose to ignore it since it is convenient for you to do so. So here’s a VERY short primer:
Chapter 11 is a “Reorganization” bankruptcy, which allows the company to continue to operate. Here’s how it works:
1. The company can continue to operate without paying unsecured creditors the money it owes at the day, hour, and minute it filed bankruptcy. In other words, if you supplied parts to the factory on Dec. 1st with payment terms of 30 days, and the company files bankruptcy on Dec. 29th without paying your bill, you are screwed. You are now one of many “unsecured creditors” who probably will never get paid.
2. The secured creditors – those who were in the best position to protect themselves in advance – will continue to get paid (with court permission). If the company doesn’t pay them, they will go to court and ask for permission to foreclose on the property. If the company would rather surrender the property than continue to pay the mortgage, the company may not contest such a motion.
3. Suppliers the company has to continue to do business with will be paid. The company will make sure they are paid up as of the day and hour and minute of filing, and they will get a court order approving payments for new supplies while in Chapt. 11 as an “administrative expense”. Typically, parts purchased on that basis are more expensive because of the risk that the company will slide into Chapt. 7 liquidation.
4. The company can’t continue to operate without bank credit. So the company will get court permission to borrow money as an “administrative expense” from a bank at a significantly higher interest rate. This may not be the same banks which hold other unsecured debt, who would be screwed by the Chapt. 11 filing.
5. As a “Debtor in Possession”, the management will continue to operate the company, with court approval of their salaries and bonuses. Typically, managers of large companies in Chapt. 11 ask for, and recieve, a large premium on their regular salaries and bonuses, arguing that the extra work of managing a company in Chapt. 11 justifies additional compensation, and also that additional pay is necessary to keep “experienced managers” from going elsewhere during the Chapt. 11 proceedings.
6. Lawyers, accountants, consultants, and loan brokers will make a ton of money in the process.
Note that all of the above doesn’t really save the company any money. In fact, it usually costs MORE money to go through Chapt. 11. The only place where money can be saved is probably the whole reason for trying to push the auto companies into Chapt. 11:
7. Rejection of Executory Contracts. The company can reject an executory contract (i.e., a contract for future performance). Leases are executory contracts. So are Union collective bargaining agreements, according to a U.S. Supreme Court decision – I think it was relating to the United Airlines breaking it’s contract with the pilot’s union.
So while in Chapt. 11, and while the company management, lawyers, accountants, and consultants are making a huge killing in additional compensation, the company will decide to single-handedly re-write the union contract. The union can strike, of course – but it’s claim for future benefits under the contract will remain merely another “unsecured debt”, among others which will typically never be paid or paid out at pennies on the dollar.
Notice Ponzi-schemer Madoff’s Political Contributions:
MADOFF, BERNARD
NEW YORK, NY
10022 SELF EMPLOYED/INVESTOR $2,300 04/24/2008 P JEFF MERKLEY FOR OREGON – Democrat
Madoff, Bernard L
NEW YORK, NY
10021 Bernard Madoff Investment/Chairman $5,000 07/20/2007 P LAUTENBERG NJ VICTORY COMMITTEE – Democrat
Madoff, Bernard L
NEW YORK, NY
10021 Bernard Madoff Investment/Chairman $2,300 07/20/2007 P LAUTENBERG NJ VICTORY COMMITTEE – Democrat
Madoff, Bernard L
NEW YORK, NY
10021 Bernard Madoff Investment/Chairman $300 07/20/2007 P LAUTENBERG NJ VICTORY COMMITTEE – Democrat
Madoff, Bernard L Mr.
NEW YORK, NY
10021 Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securi $5,000 05/24/2007 P SECURITIES INDUSTRY AND FINANCIAL MARKETS ASSOCIATION POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
MADOFF, BERNARD L
NEW YORK, NY
10022 BERNARD L. MADOFF INVEST.-SEC./CHAI $25,000 05/04/2007 P DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE – Democrat
Gee, seems like another case of the Dems spewing hatred about Wall Street…yet taking the money gladly!
Oops. go back a couple years and find these!
MADOFF, BERNARD L
NEW YORK, NY
10022 BERNARD L. MADOFF INVEST. SEC./CHAI $25,000 09/30/2006 P DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE – Democrat
MADOFF, BERNARD L
NEW YORK, NY
10021 BERNARD L MADOFF INVEST SEC $25,000 05/09/2005 P DEMOCRATIC SENATORIAL CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE – Democrat
The Senate Democrats LOVE the Ponzi-Man!!
Oh, and when the Chapt. 11 proceeding is over, the company managemetn will give itself yet another huge bonus, patting itself on the back for all the hard work it did in “…steering the company through the difficult shoals of a Chapt. 11 bankruptcy proceeding…” (See United Airlines case as an example). In the meantime the workers will still get the shaft, having personally paid virtually all the cost of keeping the company afloat.
The Big Three does have major problems:
1. Management continues to RE-act, not anticipate, market changes. As a consequence it is constantly behind the wave, playing catch-up.
2. They made crappy cars for a long time (1973-mid 1990’s). That’s improved lately, but it takes 10 to 20 years to restore confidence.
3. They constantly fought against government regulation (seat belts, pollution, MPG standards), when their overseas competition simply accepted them and moved onward.
4. They earned the antipathy of their workforce by blaming them for problems caused by management, constantly demanding “give backs” while giving themselves ever-increasing salaries and bonuses.
5. They have never addressed the primary gripe of car-buyers: the struggle to not get screwed by the dealer either in buying the car or in car repairs.
NOTE that the UAW and it’s wages are NOT part of these problems.
From the Detroit News:
Friday, December 12, 2008
Daniel Howes: Commentary
Senators to UAW: It’s payback time
Gee, what does UAW expect???????????
Over $1.9 MILLION to Democrats…plus endless hours of campaign workers off the books vs. $12,500.
Seems like UAW Union Bosses need to go…and be replaced with more even-handed leadership.
Corporate Republicans are Evil.
The republicans and vile individuals like Troll, and Cynical, they don’t want living wages, they want slaves again.
They want to roll back every wage gain and regulation that helps a worker. Why not go all the way and start advocating slavery. Be real southern Republicans! You know you want it. That way you can pay your workers nothing. Work them 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. When they are not any good for working or they complain, sell them for parts on the organ market. What’s not to like?
Greed is not Good, Greed is Evil.
#75. Too True. Wanna bet Mr. Cynical won’t even acknowledge #3 or the Note?
Cause Mr. Cynical hates unions, regardless if they are needed or not.
What can the U.S. automakers do to turn around their situation?
1. Get a good source of reasonable financing so buyers can buy their cars. Given the realities of the credit crisis right now, that probably means an infusion of federal money. But it should be a relatively safe investment, secured by the title on the cars.
2. Over ten years ago the new U.S. manager of Hyundai told it’s Korean executives that they could never sell a significant numbers of cars in the U.S. without a dramatic increase in quality. To meet this goal, and to dramatize it to the public, it offered the first five-year warranty. The Big Three U.S. automakers should do the same – offer FREE repairs on all it’s vehicles for the first five years (with resonable exclusions). Not just the drive train, but the entire car. That way you know if you buy a car, you won’t have to worry about getting ripped off on car repairs. If you make it a ten-year tranferable warranty, then that would REALLY prove that quality was important to you. Don’t charge the customers extra for this, wrap it up in the base price of the vehicle.
3. Have a reasonable no-negotiation sticker prices for the vehicles. (This is how it is done in Japan). Yes, this would change the basic relationship between the dealer and the manufacturer. But in the long run it would be worth it. Why should a person feel like they are preparing to go into battle just to buy a car? Why should one person be charged more for the same car at the same location on the same day, just because the negotiation skills are different?
4. keep warranty costs low by continuous working to improve the quality of the vehicles, and designing vehicles so they are easier to repair. Current vehicles are designed to facilitate ease of assembly, not repair.
I bet if Mullaly were to go on TV and announce that such a program was being put into effect immediatley, new car sales would take off – even in this economy. People would dump their old cars so they wouldn’t have to pay hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars to repair a problem cause somewhere in the computer/electric/sensor systems.
75. rhp6033 spews:
Bullshit!
This from the NY Times:
TOTAL COMPENSATION is what matters. The UAW, just like our Washington State Employees Union, wants you to focus solely on SALARY,,,for obvious reasons.
It’s TOTAL COMPENSATION (Salary, Benefits, Retirement & Paid Time-off) which should be analyzed.
If the Benefits above Salary don’t matter…then let’s eliminate them.
It’s disingenuous to not look at TOTAL COMPENSATION!
I do not hate the Unions.
I think they must be practical about what they make relative to others TOTAL COMPENSATION.
UAW workers make waaaaaaaaaaay more than the average worker in the US AND industry competitors like Toyota…when you look at TOTAL COMPENSATION!
How come you won’t acknowledge that TOTAL COMPENSATION is what really matters.
Let’s get real.
Wise up KLOWNS!
If the Big Three go under, there will be plenty of physically fit former auto-workers to rebuild the nation’s infrastructure.
And they won’t need to know somebody in the union to get that job!
Nepotism sucks.
re 81: Speaking of getting real, how does figuring in the retirement wages of people already retired improve the ‘real wage’ of today’s auto worker?
Do you really think that they will collect a pension?
You never win arguments because your whole purpose is to keep grinding the same old axe.
Mr. Cynical, stolen the lunch money from any widows or orphans recently?
The company and the workers agreed on a contract to create that pension.
According to you, now that the worker is old, and no use to the company, and it’s inconvenient, the company should just kick them to the curb with no more than “Sucks to be You”.
I hope your stock market investments do the same to you. When it comes time to pay you for the use of your money, they just renege on their contract with you, keep the money, and say “Sucks to be You”. I hope you will be old and unable to recover and end up in the street. Just like you want for the Auto Worker pensioners.
Why do you hate old people so much?
Greed is not Good, Greed is Evil.
Mr. Cynical, by your logic, the executives are making, I donno, $4087 an hour. How come you are not trying to cut them off at the knees, railing against them?
I just have no idea why the Republicans…nationally and on this board think that the auto industry…remember we’re talking suppliers, shippers, dealer networks…millions of real people with houses and kids that won’t have jobs…millions of real people that won’t be buying goods, services, clothes, groceries…etc…I really have no idea WHY these idiots think a massive failure of a major industry is a good thing.
Bet the automakers feel really stupid about all that money they gave to Republicans over the years.
Wow.
THIS is the hero to the right…his failure? just that he got caught…
http://clusterstock.alleyinsid.....than-enron
Also the car dealers, suppliers, shippers, mechanics and everyone up and down the auto food chain. All those people small town conservative republicans. They must be loving the national Republicans right now. The Republicans who choose to help the foreign car manufactures in their districts over the good of the country.
Greed is not Good, Greed is EVIL.
I can hope that somehow Mr Madoff corruption will end up costing Mr Cynical his life savings, then we will see if he will be demanding some free government help.
Good…it’s about fucking time people really see who these insane asswipes really are.
2010 will be a lot of fun.
2012 will be even better!!!!
MITTENS!!!!
Sarah Barracuda!!!!
The Huckster!!!
What a bloodbath THAT’s gonna be.
Oh FUCK!!! THIS is rich…
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/.....%e2%80%99/
I don’t think it matters. The Senate Republicans will get their money, so they don’t care who else it hurts. It’s just evil greed, pure and simple. The Senate Republicans won’t care till it effects their bank account.
I bet you whined about the banks and Insurance bailouts though, so you’re one of those pansies who just like to piss and moan about anything and everything just because you’re a miserable mutt in life. Wow, are you guys pathetic in here.
@59
Hey dumbass if you get your way I hope you end up living over a steam grate and eating out of a trash can during “Great Depression, the sequel”.
First of all what about all the financial sector bailouts from the Fed and TARP? Make them pay it all back now and we’ll talk about telling the auto industry to go screw itself.
Second do you really think the economy can take millions of people suddenly out of work in a very short period of time right now? If the big 3 go under conservative estimates are somewhere in the neighborhood of another 10% unemployment and over 30% in the rust belt.
Third the cascade effects of telling the big 3 to die goes far beyond just the US auto companies and their parts suppliers. Those same parts suppliers also supply the foreign auto plants in the US. If they go under the foreign auto plants will have to close until new supplies can be arranged. Same thing for US truck, bus, and heavy equipment makers.
All of the dealers get hit by this too. Even if a dealer was smart and owns dealerships for foreign makes that doesn’t mean they can necessarily take the hit from their big 3 affiliated operations suddenly becoming worthless.
Cynical @ 80:
Comparing total compensation is fair, as long as it is accuratley described and calculated. A lot of Wingnut radio and TV hasn’t been doing that, making it appear that UAW workers are taking home $70+ dollars an hour, plus benefits. That simply isn’t the case.
As for the actual gross pay of workers, FactCheck says it averages $28.00 per hour, your source says $43.00. I have a hard time believing that there’s much overtime available these days, so I’m leaning towards my figures – they match what was mentioned in the congressional testimony I heard on the radio. I think my $28.00 figure includes vacation, sick leave, overtime, and holidays, but not medical benefits.
I don’t think there’s much overtime available, or that current employees are incurring $15.00 per hour in medical benefits.
As the article I quoted mentions, UAW pay is right in line with what the transplants (Honday, Toyota, Nissan) are paying, except that they don’t have a large retired work force – yet.
Adding unfunded liabilities for retired employee’s medical benefits to current employement expenses doesn’t make sense, and would only be used by people trying to manipulate the numbers to make a political point. It’s a debt, not a current cost. Using that method would make as much sense as adding the total federal debt to the annual salary of the President (well, in that case, maybe it DOES make some sense).
Much of the U.S. steel and steel fabrication industry died during the Reagan administration, as did much of the heavy equipment. Now when you see road construction, you don’t see many Catapillar and John Deer road-building equipment, most of it has foreign names. Very little shipbuilding is done in the U.S. any more. Textile jobs went overseas, too.
In the 1990’s, many more industries shifted overseas. We were told that it’s okay, the “service sector” will pick up the slack. You know, telephone call centers, etc. But in the 2000’s those went overseas to India and similar locations. Compuer programming is being outsourced now, also.
There’s not much left. I’m afraid that if we let the auto companies die, we won’t have a manufacturing base in the U.S. again. And companies with locations in foreign countries will dictate to us how much we will pay for our military equipment, and how we will use it.
Wow, the hyperbole. What next HennyPenny? Armageddon? Alien invavions will inevitably take place? ::yawn::
My advice Chris? Quit watching the Oxygen channel. That way, you won’t be wound so tight.
A little consistency from you folks would go a long way towards establishing some credibility….of course this site is hardly ever either of those two things.
90. Fed up with the Greedy Bastards spews:
What’s with you KLOWNS wish bad-will on a nice guy like me? Sucks to be someone so angry and negative.
BTW–Madoff cost me ZERO.
But he is a big-time Democrat contributor dumbass (See #72 and #73)
This from the NY Times:
TOTAL COMPENSATION is what matters. The UAW, just like our Washington State Employees Union, wants you to focus solely on SALARY,,,for obvious reasons.
It’s TOTAL COMPENSATION (Salary, Benefits, Retirement & Paid Time-off) which should be analyzed.
If the Benefits above Salary don’t matter…then let’s eliminate them.
It’s disingenuous to not look at TOTAL COMPENSATION!
I think the Union members should really think about this:
From the Detroit News:
Friday, December 12, 2008
Daniel Howes: Commentary
Senators to UAW: It’s payback time
Gee, what does UAW expect???????????
Over $1.9 MILLION to Democrats…plus endless hours of campaign workers off the books vs. $12,500.
Seems like UAW Union Bosses need to go…and be replaced with more even-handed leadership. Getting so one-sided on politics was bound to have consequences someday. You’d have to be mighty naive to believe a politician would bend over backwards to help someone who just spent millions trying to get them un-elected.
If GM & Chrysler go thru Chapter 11….the world will not end, JUST THE UNION CONTRACT!
And Ford may not even go.
Hey mrC,
Not so hot on those reading skills?
The work force at the Big 3 are older than the relative youngsters at the import factories and therefore get more vacation, and have higher health costs. Salary is lower for these older UAW folks than at Toyota. And yes, we all figured out that the Big 3 toss everything but the kitchen sink into their fake hourly costs, no need to regurge the GOP talking points at this point.
Since GM is shutting 20 plants for the month of Januarary and temporarily laying off those workers, bailout or not, I think that many UAW members just took that pay cut you so desperately wanted them to have.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081212/gm_cuts.html
Southern states pay to host foreign factories
Mario Hernandez, president of the San Antonio Economic Development Foundation, said the Texas package could reach $430
million if Toyota expands. He said the number includes money for some projects such as $50 million for area roadways not tied
directly to Toyota.
A tool for comparing projects is the cost per worker. The incentive package would cost taxpayers $178,000 per job initially, but
would drop to $89,000 per position with full employment following an expansion.
In comparison, Georgians are spending $89,550 per worker for Kia, and Nissan received $90,875 per job.Toyota package may be a bargain
Permanent Job Proves An Elusive Dream
Hicks has spent four years as a temp worker building cars for Toyota Motor Corp., making manifolds and dashboards for Camrys, Avalons and Solaras sold all over the United States. He works alongside full-fledged Toyota employees who earn twice his salary, plus health and retirement benefits.
For the really dumbass@21:
I chose the Pew Research Center because they call it right more times than others and their questions are not biased like other polling outfits.
Have a great day sucking on that one!
Uptown@103: Cynical used the NY Times as his source above. GOP talking points from the liberal NY Times?
I have 14 words for you… … …
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
The Republicans don’t want a shot at the White House in 2012, 2016, 2020, 2024 . . .
It’ll be remembered a for a long time that those “Southern Republicans” tried to fuck over workers of all types in Ohio and Indiana.
And as John McCain and John Kerry both learned; you aint winning the White House without Ohio.
The big 3 will get the bailout, and the Dems will rule the WH and Congress for decades.
Thank, God.
Hey Puddybud, much love and Merry Christmas my brother from another mother. PacMan, too.
MRs W’s Class@24:
Really? They American public has been paying attention to this matter for the last few weeks. They know all the inns and outs of the “bailout” plan.
Just because they disagree with you they are stupid.
hey puddy,
I said: “Not so hot on those reading skills?”
applies to you too.
NYT liberal?!? More GOP talking points.
I think the Auto Industry should close up shop in all of the states where the senators voted against the loans. See how fast those gerbils start to change their tune when they have 10-20% more unemployed in their backyards.
Upchuck@109:
I didn’t say it UCLA did.
Moron!
@110:
Hello Cuz. Dumb suggestion. They are happy and not unionized…
No one dared to discuss the no show but get paid part of the UAW contract…
GBS: George Voinovich R-Ohio is a liberal Republican. He’s against the bailout as how it was worded. Funny how that works.
Merry Christmas to you too.
Lunch next week? I’ll try and russell (rustle) up PacMan!
For the super-fucking dumbass stubbypud @105, where’s your consternation for your great leader, the one you voted for twice, for overturning the will of one body of the people? The Chimp in chief weighed in early this morning guaranteeing banker bailout money for the auto industry, thus saving the stock market and dollar’s asses for another day. You do realize, that the authority allowing the Executive to override a congressional opinion in this manner was only granted through the Homeland Security Act. The act your fucked up 4th Reich party ramrodded through congress. These are the same powers that will now be available to Barack Obama. Suck your passifier, and get back in your play pen.
I’m trying to find the references in the NYTimes articles, but the only articles in the NYTimes which seem to have anyting resembling Cynical’s figures are ones which merely repeat the management’s explanation of the numbers, without checking out the numbers themselves.
Those management calculations were part of management’s propoganda effort in advance of the 2007 contract re-negotiation, which are typically inflated to (a) try to create a backlash against the Union and deprive it of the public support it would need in a strike, and (b) prepare the Union for huge giveback demands.
If there’s another article out there I missed, Cynical’s welcome to cite it.
Oh, and the NY Times DOES get it wrong from time-to-time, as the WMD articles demonstrated.
115 comments later, simplified:
fascist racist wingnut fucktards hate unions and all people poorer than they are, advocate slave labor as a solution to all the nation’s problems while spewing absolute idiocy..
babbling liberal cynics think if you bailout criminal financial institutions and their billionaire leaderships with a trillion dollars ($30 million in compensation seems about right for pay) you might as well bailout people who make real objects, tangible assets, and most of the 4 millions human beings who actually work.
Just to make all of you feel better, the Senate
is giving themselves a $6000 raise per year I think first of the year.
Wow slingedhisshitwadagain:
Do I agree with Bush on this? Nope. But I bet he talked to Obama before he acted.
72/73 Cynical
You are not establishing that Democrats “love” Madoff. You are establishing the reverse: that Madoff likes Democrats enough to donate to them. If you come up with any evidence that “Democrats love Madoff,” please bring it in.
Republican memo:
If ‘m not mistaken, BTW< aren’t the Big Three deep in the middle of what we Great Unwashed would call “interstate commerce?”
That means that the COngress has the power to regulate them, and more or less otherwise legislate regarding them in any way they see fit, as authorized under the US Constitution.