The West Virginia mine tragedy, in which 12 of 13 trapped miners are now confirmed dead, reminds us that throughout the nation, and throughout our history, it is an army of anonymous laborers — not highly paid and celebrated corporate executives — who daily put life and limb at risk to keep our economy running.
While much will be written (after the fact) about the long record of safety violations at the Sago Mine, workers at even the best run mines know that they put their health and safety at risk each time they descend the shaft. The same is true in dozens of other industries and professions, from police and firefighters to commercial fishing to the pesticide laden fields of America’s farm belt.
In recent years the right has stepped up its withering attacks on organized labor, even as the union movement has continued to decline in size and influence, but it should be remembered that workers are only as safe as they are today due to decades of management’s grudging concessions to union demands, and the state and federal regulation that has resulted from union lobbying. When Republicans attack organized labor they are attacking the welfare of workers like the 12 miners who died providing the fuel that runs our factories and power plants.
I don’t want to overly politicize this tragedy, but the next time the anti-union rhetoric flies I hope we all remember who these unions represent, and the sacrifices these workers make every day.
Bravo, Goldy. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
No big surprise that safety enforcement has been weakened under a Republican administration, but the extent of the payback is tragic:
DailyKOs and Washington Monthly report:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/…
UNDER MINED….What’s the story behind the story of the tragedy at the Sago Mine? At least part of it is predictable: after George Bush took office in 2001 the Mine Safety and Health Administration was stocked with coal mining executives who were distinctly less interested in mine safety than they should have been. Clara Bingham told the story in “Under Mined,” in the January 2005 issue of the Washington Monthly:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/…
Coal executives, threatened by Vice President Al Gore’s green background and his pledge to increase taxes on fossil fuels, thought they could get a better deal with the Republicans — when they raised a record $3.8 million dollars for the 2000 federal election, 88 percent went to the GOP. At the annual meeting of the West Virginia Coal Association a few months after Bush’s inauguration, the group’s director told 150 industry executives, “You did everything you could to elect a Republican president. [Now] you are already seeing in his actions the payback.”
….Bush also demonstrated his friendship to industry leaders when he awarded the top job at MSHA to an executive with Utah’s Energy West Mining Company, David Lauriski, whose top two deputies would also be recruited from mining companies. The woman who would become their boss, Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao, is the wife of Kentucky’s Republican senator Mitch McConnell, a long time political ally of coal companies.
Bingham’s story is primarily about Jack Spadaro, who was hounded out of his job as superintendent of the National Mine Health and Safety Academy after he became a whistleblower on an investigation into a coal waste leak in Kentucky. Read the whole thing.
Nice Spin Goldy…
Unfortunately, Mining is one of the ast places the Union actually has a valid place in Labor.
I’m curious Goldy, do you own an American Car? Or does, in typical liberal fashion, your pro union line fall short at the point where your wallet begins?
Off topic here, but: What’s wrong with a Democrat using “At least I’m not corrupt” as a platform? All other things being equal, would you rather have a corrupt politician or a clean one representing you? Sure, the Democrat may not be your usual cup of tea, but at least he’s not lying to you, or using his position to line his pockets. Another way of saying this is would you rather have a dedicated person of principle representing you, or someone who’s busy scamming to increase his own personal wealth? With the former you know where you stand; with the latter, who knows if the person is going to reperesnt as he said or for some “back-room” reason.
The GOP controlled congress has been whittling away safety regulations for mining for the last 10 years and with Bush, there’s very little enforcement. ($60 fine for a safety violation?! 24 hour notice for inspections?) The AP article reprinted in the P-I this morning regarding how much safer mining is now was repulsive. Some really great reporting, fellas, when the only guy you talk to is some mining industry rep. who in the face of 12 corpses has nothing better to say than, ‘gee, mining is safer than it was in the dark ages.’ What BS. How can they write an article about mining safety and not talk to someone from the union? I mean, WTF?
In any disagreement between labor and management, I used to back labor about 50% of the time. That quickly rose to 99% of the time after the election of Reagan and war on organized labor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....ke_of_1981
That was 25 years ago. We see the results today, and I am not talking about the recent tragedy in West Virginia. As of 2005 most Americans are in the service industry
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
With the loss of manufacturing jobs, Wal-Mart and other big box retailers is the employer of choice for many in the US. Average hourly wage: $11 ($4.40 adjusted to 1980 levels). How they deal with Unions? Don’t ask:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....Feb10.html
momus67
What do you mean by an “american car”? Do you mean one with an “american name, but built in Mexico? Do you mean one built in America by Americans but a foriegn design team? Or do you define that as An American car built by Americans, in America, in a Unionized shop?
Your question is so vague, it sounds like it was taken from a talking point memo.
I think Goldy raises a good point.
Before I saw anything else, my condolences to the families that not only lost loved ones, but got their hearts yanked by faulty reporting. I will not point fingers at anyone, but it is horrible to get a call sayign we pulled 12 guys out, then hear later “oops, we meant 12 bodies”. I cannot imagine the horror.
For my part, my dislike of unions is that they have become less concerned with working conditions, which is what places like coal mining needs, and more concernign with lobbying, increasing wages and union survival. When the Issaquah teachers went on strike, I was sympathetic in part, until they voted to defy the courts order to return to work.
Leaving aside the argument about whether they as state employees can legally strike (some legal experts say no) when they voted to defy a courts order, they demonstrated a disrespect of authority I found unpleasent, considering they are role models for my children. I wont say any more on that now.
I have belonged to two unions, the IAW and the AFL-CIO. In both cases I saw people who passionately cared about improving working conditions and maintaining wage parity.
in the case of the IAM, I saw some of the most underhanded dishonest behavior by Bill Johnson, then union president.
I suppose it boils down to the individual union.
I also readily acknolwedge part of my dislike stems from an encounter with the teamsters I had in the 80’s. My then wife was a teamster when they went on strike. She didnt show up at one of her assigned picket locations due being in the emergency room.
A nice friendly teamster came on to the Air Base I was stationed at, came to our house and flattened the tires on our car. Considering they had her assigned to picket 50 miles away, that was rather self defeating.
I complained to the teamster local president, who was continuing to make 120k salary while they picketed, and he was sympathetic, but unhelpful. She walked her assigned pickets, sick, and we were left alone. But it still irks me, the thuggery that sometimes repeat sometimes comes with the Union Label.
I saw the same glimmers of bullying with the IAM as the chief steward strutted through the factory as if he owned it. He is the president now. Good for him.
Oh…my ultimate pet peeve regarding unions: people that bring their kids to picket lines.
Just some ramblings.
correction. IAW shold have read IAM.
Not much has changed since the mine wars of the early 20th century. In 1969, the Unite Mine Workers convinced Congress to enact the Federal Coal Mine Health and Safety Act. That law changed a number of mining practices to protect miners’ safety and provided compensation for miners suffering from black lung disease.
But, there has to be a will to enforce the law, and Republicans have a will not to.
Fire in the Hole
(Mason Daring & John Sayles)
You can tell ‘em in the country, tell ‘em in the town
The miners down in Mingo laid their shovels down.
We won’t pull another pillow, load another ton,
Or lift another finger till the union we have won.
cho: Stand up boys, let the bosses know!
Turn your buckets over, turn your lanterns low;
There’s fire in our hearts and fire in our soul
But there ain’t gonna be no fire in the hole!
Well, Daddy died a miner, grandpa he did too,
I’ll bet this coal will kill me ‘for my workin’ days are through;
In a hole that’s dark and dirty, an early grave confined
I plan to make a union for the ones I leave behind.
Here’s the deal. The GOP doesn’t care about rank and file union workers because they tend to vote Democratic and they don’t traditionally have the money to belong to the Yacht Club. So the GOP doesn’t care if a few of these guys die in a mine somewhere. After all, none of these GOP assholes is going to have to worry about THEIR kid dying in the mine so why put undue burden on the mine owner to make it safe? Sort of like the GOP knows THEIR kids won’t have to fight and die in Iraq so why not send a few thousand more?
Sven @ 6:
I brought my kid to my picket line. It’s not your god damned business.
Larry,
Off topic here, but: What’s wrong with a Democrat using “At least I’m not corrupt” as a platform?
I have no problem with that as a campaign issue, though it assumes that there is an opposing candidate thae *is* corrupt, so I would expect some manner of proof to back the allegation, otherwise it is meaningless rhetoric and empty accusation.
Also, proving personal honesty is a long term proposition, so should it be believed just because they say so?
I guess being a cynic, I look at politicians and see them as operating in a world that has different ethical standards of behavior. When lies are readily excused as being nuanced you know you are not dealing in the same world.
For example, I read one of the people whom Abramoff had given money to through two of his organizations, but not from him personally was asked if he would return it. he said no, because he did not get anything from Abramoff personally, he wasnt going to admit any wrong doing. Maybe he didnt, but the casual use of sophistry is silly.
The discussion about campaign contributions versus bribes is really a good case in point. The rules have so many loopholes and the system is still greatly open to someone making a campaign contribution legally, but the candidate personally benefitting from it through many channels, and ways that people can donate to a third party and trickle the money to the candidate.
I know there are honest hard working politicians in Olympia and in DC. I just cannot always determine what honest and hardworking means to them, as compared to what it means to me,
That’s why when I consider the motives of politicians, I am generally cynical from the word go.
oog,
Out of curiosity, do you think that some of the unions have made their own problem in some regards by the constant increase in wage above ctual cost of living?
In other words, can you totally blame some companies for seeking cheaper labor?
When I was at Boeing, I saw a lot of jobs go away to China in return for airplane orders. Boeing traded them as incentitives. When I was laid off in 99, I think that was partially to blame, so I am sympathetic in principle, but from an economic standpoint, When an IAM union machinist is making 24-28 dollars an hour (not counting the cost of benefits) to do work that could be done elsewhere for 2-4 dollars an hour, well its not a shock to see the company do the math and move the jobs.
I don’t like it. Helpdesk jobs in the computer and other industries are moving steadily to Canada and India. We are losing too many jobs to the other countries.
But how do you stop it? Id be interested in your thoughts.
Ivan,
It’s my opinion that children have no business on a picket line.
I won’t apologize for that.
In other news, this just in from Maryland:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....09_pf.html
Mooning Deemed ‘Disgusting’ but No Crime in Md.
Acquitting a Germantown man who exposed his buttocks during an argument with a neighbor, a Montgomery County Circuit Court judge ruled yesterday that mooning, while distasteful, is not illegal in Maryland.
For some reason it reminds me of here….
=)
Yeah, it’s bad taste to politicize this, but the last time there was a mine disaster, Bush was right there after the miners were successfully rescued to get a nice photo op and blather about how this was the kind of thing that makes America great or some such. Things didn’t turn out so great this time, so has he shown up to comfort the loved ones of the victims?
The coal industry may be pretty far below everyone’s radar now, but if the “peak oil” predictions have any truth, sooner or later coal is likely to be very important again. Issues connected with mining will become of great interest here in the Northwest, because there’s still plenty of coal in the ground right here.
Oh yeah…about “American” cars. A few years back I realized we owned a Toyota that was put together in California, and a Mercury that (like all big Fords) came from Windsor, Ontario. Also, don’t forget all the ballyhoo about Hyundai’s big new assembly plant in Alabama.
Donnageddon…
And speaking of vague distractions…..
My question to Goldy was based on a post regarding Union issues. I asked if he was a typical lineral hypocrite, who gets all pro union and then buys other than an American (non UAW) car.
So what is your point? There are no cars that are produced by the United Auto Workers any longer? (http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2006/uawcars.cfm)
I personally don’t care about the unions, but if you are going to get on a pro-uinion stance, put your money where your mouth is. If not, Shut up.
14.
Have you ever seen “Salt of the Earth”? I suspect not, but you can rent it now. J. Edgar Hoover is dead, and its even on the National Film Registry.
Sometimes people do what they gotta do.
Not sure what you mean, but on your recommendatoin I will look into it.
Voter,
I assume you mean this:
Salt of the Earth (1954)
Based on an actual strike against the Empire Zinc Mine in New Mexico, the film deals with the prejudice against the Mexican-American workers, who struck to attain wage parity with Anglo workers in other mines and to be treated with dignity by the bosses. The film is an early treatment of feminism, because the wives of the miners play a pivotal role in the strike, against their husbands wishes. In the end, the greatest victory for the workers and their families is the realization that prejudice and poor treatment are conditions that are not always imposed by outside forces. This film was written, directed and produced by members of the original “Hollywood Ten,” who were blacklisted for refusing to answer Congressional inquiries on First Amendment grounds.
Um, OK, but what has this to do with my question in 14?
I never said unions and strikes were not historically necessary.
I merely asked if the successes of the unions have lead to an unforeseen consequence.
If you ahve read anythign about outsourcing it is a valid concern.
One might also wonder how much NAFTA contributed to it. The Steelworkers think it has:
http://www.steelworkers-usw.or.....t/1131.php
Sory, it was 15.
22,
Ah, that makes more sense.
But I have personally seen violence in picket lines as picketing members attack people crossing the lines, or in the case of the strike I mentioned in 8, against trucks that delivered through the lines.
That is why I continue to maintain that children do not belong there.
Since you made it clear that you have not seen “Salt of the Earth”, a major part of the storyline is how the union keeps the strike going, once the mining company gets an injuction, making it illegal for the miners to walk the picket line.
The miners wives walk the picket line in their places, and the heroine, Esperanza, does so with her newborn baby, who she takes with her when she is arrested.
For sure, at one point Esperanza has to flee to the bushes to escape the tear gas the sheriff’s deputies fire off.
Of course, the bastions of civility could choose not to use such tactics.
Um, yea I know, I got that part. I read the plot synopsis since I havent had time in the last 20 minutes to actually go rent it.
And that specific example is certainly a good one.
But at the same time, I contend under normal circumstances, I dont feel children have any place on a picket line.
Just my opinoin. Have joined two unions, and having been in two pending stike situations, it never occured to me to bring them, nor would my 1st wife have even considered taking our newborn son with her when she was on picket. She was there, often at night in a hostile environment, where truckers were frequently being vandalized and one person was shot.
Our son was safe at a day care provider.
Ivan feels different, that’s his choice.
sVEN @ 13: Out of order, 2 points:
1) U said: “The discussion about campaign contributions versus bribes is really a good case in point. The rules have so many loopholes and the system is still greatly open to someone making a campaign contribution legally, but the candidate personally benefitting from it through many channels, and ways that people can donate to a third party and trickle the money to the candidate.” This is NOT what the discussion is about, I’m talking about “illegal” corruption. While I agree with your sentiments, “illegal” means breaking a law that’s on the books. What u are talking about is “immoral” corruption (i.e. inappropriate, but not illegal, use of finances, scamming the system, etc), which is an entirely different subject. Please don’t try to confuse the issue.
2) I take the stance thatthe Dems are going to do well in the next few elections, because most people don’t know enough to make an informed decision, but the are seeing that MORE Republicans are being prosecuted then Dems, and this is while the Reps are in power! My argument for condemning the reps is essentially the same as the RICO statute: While you may not be able to prove individual culpability, with so many other Republicans being prosecuted, it stands to reason that they are more corrupt, in general. Therefore, all other things being equal, the relative honesty of Dems should sway the vote in thier favor. Oh, and the leadership is involved and they sett he tone, furhter proof thatthe Reps are not not to be trusted.
to me, it depends on why you’re taking the kid.
Nobody is a fan of being manipulated, and its potentially dangerous…
“workers are only as safe as they are today due to decades of management’s grudging concessions to union demands, and the state and federal regulation that has resulted from union lobbying”
Goldy, let’s not forget that laws and regulations don’t enforce themselves (that’s why we need cops, prosecutors, and courts), and that caseworkers, regulators, and guvmint hack attorneys like (ahem) Yours Truly are among the unsung and unappreciated heroes who keep the “invisible hand” from dragging American workplaces down to Third World standards of safety and working conditions.
Don’t hurt your arm patting yourself on the back, Roger.
The most telling interview this morning was on NBC. Matt Lauer (not known for his jounalistic skills) had one dead miner’s son on, and the Governor.
Matt had the son confront the Governor, who lost an uncle to a mining accident back in ’68. The son said he had pleaded with his dad nearly every day not to go back to the mine due to safety concerns.
Matt hen asked what the miner’s son would want to improve mine safety. His response: “this stuff never happened when the union represented mine workers. they protected us. people weren’t afraid to report problems and lose their job…everything got fixed when the union was involved.”
People may blame Goldy for politicizing a tragedy…but listen to what the victims are saying. They know that the protections the union offered were hard fought, produced quality workers and produced safe conditions for those workers.
I’ve worked union and non-union jobs in construction and other fields…and the best working conditions, better pay and absolute safety was present when a union involved.
Sven: Even Tucker Carlson is on my side!
It’s not a Republican scandal, it’s the Republican Party
by kos
The Bow Tie makes sense:
“So it was with not all that much surprise that I read Lou Sheldon’s name again recently, in a story about disgraced lobbyist and admitted felon Jack Abramoff. According to the Washington Post, Sheldon allegedly took money from an Abramoff client called eLottery and in return pressured members of Congress to defeat an anti-gambling bill. Sheldon was joined in this by former Christian Coalition head Ralph Reed, another longtime Abramoff friend.
The usual good government types will point to the Abramoff scandal as yet another reason we need tougher campaign finance laws and more stringent ethics rules in Washington. Maybe they’re right. But there’s a deeper kind of corruption here.
Why were supposedly honest ideological conservatives like Sheldon and Reed and anti-tax activist Grover Norquist involved with Jack Abramoff in the first place? […]
Weirdos and charlatans and self-interested hacks like Lou Sheldon and Grover Norquist have long discredited the conservative ideas they purport to represent. Their political allies in Washington and Congress may be tempted to defend them. I hope they don’t. We’ll all be better off when they’re gone.”
The problem for principled conservatives (and I’m still not sure whether Tucker Carlson is one of them) is that they’ve lost representation in DC. The Republican Party isn’t mired in scandal, it IS the scandal — the system of bribery, kickbacks, and scams that fuel its massive money machine and influence peddling racket.
It’s great business, no doubt. The numbers don’t lie. But it’s not good for America, and it clearly doesn’t represent honest conservative thinking.
Ten years. That’s all it took for Republicans to go from outsider reformers to the most corrupt machine in recent history and perhaps ever (the historians can debate that point). Remember, it was DeLay who once said:
The time has come that the American people know exactly what their Representatives are doing here in Washington. Are they feeding at the public trough, taking lobbyist-paid vacations, getting wined and dined by special interest groups? Or are they working hard to represent their constituents?
That was 1995. But it wasn’t even four years later that:
… the former House majority leader or his associates have visited places of luxury most Americans have never seen, often getting there aboard corporate jets arranged by lobbyists and other special interests.
DeLay has been the biggest power in DC for a decade, reshaping the Republican Party and the DC power structure (e.g. K Street) to suit the financial and influence needs of his machine.
The Republican Party is now corrupt to its core. It can’t even blink without breaking a law or ethical guideline. The tendrils of the corruption seep all the way into the deepest corners of Congress and the White House (let’s not forget David Safavian and Susan Ralston).
And there’s the genius of the polarization that Republicans engineered in this country the last two decades. The more conservatives are conditioned to hate Democrats, the less likely they are to defect no matter how much Republicans stray from their core principles, and no matter how much corruption, greed, mismanagement, abuse of power, and death they preside over. And by controlling the entire machinery of government, they can whitewash any real investigations into those abuses.
Hence there are no checks and balances in place to prevent and punish these abuses. Not from the party’s supporters, not from the party itself, and not from the government. All that’s left is the criminal justice system, and it’s shaping up to be boom times for prosecutors, investigators, and defense lawyers in our nation’s capital.
RR @ 29
“heroes who keep the “invisible hand” from dragging American workplaces down to Third World standards of safety and working conditions.”
You mean like the working conditions that are found in the Northern Mariana Islands? Where the women are forced into prostitution and if they become pregnant they are forced to have **gasp** abortions?
You mean the working conditions where a certain legislator, Former House Majority Speaker “A”, suppressed laws that would have included these US territories under the protection of our labor LAWS?
You mean that “invisible hand?”
My that’s so Christian of them isn’t it? Yep, that’s just how Jesus would have wanted it and He would have said “Our Father who art in Heaven, Where’s my gun?”
“GIT-R-DONE Daaaaaaddy!”
“From my cold dead fingers, AMEN!”
There are some valid points to Unions, there are also some very bad things about Unions. They are too often over – populated with corrupt, power hungry thieves who take care of themselves and the organization before taking care of the workers. The union representing our State Workers are a good example of what a Union shouldn’t do and shouldn’t represent.
The Union representing Alaskan baggage workers didn’t do a very good job of protecting their worker’s rights, did they?
You can thank the American union movement for child labor laws, the 40-hour work week, sick pay, the right of employees to collectively bargain, overtime pay, and federal and state workplace safety regulation. Thank a union member today.
Why is Gregoire having opossums killed? Are rabbits next on her hit list?
Our State workers that have been fired for not joining the Union can now thank the Union for their lost jobs!
Larry,
Good points.
This is NOT what the discussion is about, I’m talking about “illegal” corruption. While I agree with your sentiments, “illegal” means breaking a law that’s on the books. What u are talking about is “immoral” corruption (i.e. inappropriate, but not illegal, use of finances, scamming the system, etc), which is an entirely different subject. Please don’t try to confuse the issue.
I think you are quibbling over a difference that makes no difference. If you need to reduce it to that level of semantics, then fine. But “scamming the System” and other sophistic reductions away from ‘illegal’ conduct ignore the point that corruption is still at the root of what they do. They still seek to circumvent laws and often find they have circumvented one too many. My point was that the entore culture of the politician as opposed to the statesman, or the public servant is that real enemy.
But I honestly respect your stance, despite disagreeing in scope.
) I take the stance thatthe Dems are going to do well in the next few elections, because most people don’t know enough to make an informed decision, but the are seeing that MORE Republicans are being prosecuted then Dems, and this is while the Reps are in power! My argument for condemning the reps is essentially the same as the RICO statute: While you may not be able to prove individual culpability, with so many other Republicans being prosecuted, it stands to reason that they are more corrupt, in general. Therefore, all other things being equal, the relative honesty of Dems should sway the vote in thier favor. Oh, and the leadership is involved and they sett he tone, furhter proof thatthe Reps are not not to be trusted
You may well be right. But then again, there are plenty of bad dems the other side can counter, so who wins in the final analysis? The one with the least amount of criminals? I hope it doesnt come down to that.
But this again is akin to the pro Kerry argument hailed by Howard Dean in 2004 when he lost the nomination. After spending weeks blasting Kerry as a poor candidate, he turend and supported him because “anyone is better then Bush”.
If you want to be considered a viable candidate or choice, in my opinion only, you need to do more then say “they suck more then I do.”
For the Democrats to recapture control of any of the three legs of the govt, they need to establish a vision of success for america. Simply saying *they suck* has shown to be insufficient. The Democrats have disconnected in some way from a lot of people and they need to reestablish that with substance. Kerry lost by having lots of better ideas, but never actually saying what they were. Bush I think won because a lot of people felt at least they knew where he stood, and better the devil you know. The 2004 campaign was to me a classic example of the lesser of two evils.
And be clear, I dont think the republicans will have an easy race in 2008 (or 2006 for that matter), but the candidates are still too speculative to say more then that. It may well come down to integrity on a case by case basis, but honestly i would rather we had some real leaders come forth, because the infighting and inter party wrangling is doing nothing as it is now.
I will happily vote for a democrat in any election if they can show me something more substantial then “I suck less then him”, which is what I have seen too many times in too many ads. I also will pass the republican if he shows the same thing, and cast my protest vote to an independent.
32,
Absolute truth and wells aid.
But what concerns me is not what unions *were*, and what they *did*, but what they continue to do now and what effect they have now.
Unions, in some cases, have become part of the problem.
@ 35
And, what problem would that be?
Sven @ 14,
As a scholar, I can only look at historical examples, even though they may be incomplete. Through most of 1900’s, pre and post depression, American Companies did pretty good with home grown labor. With the advent of the Roosevelt era of ’32 up until the Reagan era of ’80 (call it 50 years), a social contract between business/labor was established, you make money, we make a decent living. The ratio of executive to worker pay was approx 40 to1. Memories of the DEPRESSION were fresh in peoples mind. Corporate greed was an exception, not a practice.
And the symbol of this was the “Blue Pool” labor force, circa 1950’s. The dad worked, the mom stayed home, and even the most semi skilled individuals would work to have that blue swimming pool in the back yard, the ultimate symbol of success for white, middle class America.
Then came the 1980’s, and the social compact was broken. The “blue pool” disappeared, to be replaced by the “Microwave Generation”. Mother and Father forced to both work, executive salaries at 85 to 1, and that handy, dandy oven to ‘nuke’ your meals. The worker was now a piece of equipment, to be discarded if it could be replaced by a cheaper model. That was 25 years ago.
The ratio of executive to worker pay in 2005 is now conservatively estimated at 431 to1. Some will say, higher responsibility, higher pay. Some will say Global Markets, Global Competition. I say no. Greed is the reason.
Mind you, I am a capitalist with a very healthy stock portfolio. I am not a Ferengi. Unions did not kill good paying American jobs, crony capitalism did. And I see only one way that may lead to a return of a decent worker/business social contract: Global economic upheaval. Maybe I am wrong, but I do not think so. The conditions are almost identical to the Coolidge era of the 1920’s.
GSB @ 31:
I think Roger was being facetious with his comments @ 29.
3
“Unfortunately, Mining is one of the ast places the Union actually has a valid place in Labor.”
Where do you get this nonsense from? The “Right Wing History of Organized Labor?” Ever heard of a guy named John L. Lewis? No, I didn’t think you had.
Comment on 7
“Your question is so vague, it sounds like it was taken from a talking point memo.”
Bingo.
Lib @ 37
Oh, I thought he was just being lighthearted. Sorry, my bad.
Having too many Ancestors that were mine workers (Johnstown, PA)a dn the steel workers after that , yes, I’ve heard of Mr. lewis.
While you arrogantly attempt to wax philosphic, why not address all the damage the unions have done to this country as well.
There creation was absolutely needed. However after decades of abuse, misuse and corruption, the unions of today are no better than any other special interest group in America.
36,
I see Unions sometimes trying to drive wages and benefits beyond a reasonable level. Unions have become such a powerful entity that they are often as big as the coroporations they claim they oppose.
The leadership and lobbyists in unions often have highly inflated salries and often work as hard to protect the union itself as much as the worker, which is not intrinsically a bad thing, but can be if carried to extremes.
But particularly in extended the already dramatic wage gap, they often make a bad situation worse.
Have you ever read the insider outsider theory?
(source Wikipedia)
Trade unions are often accused of benefiting the insider workers, those having a secure job and high productivity, at the cost of the outsider workers, consumers of the goods or services produced, and the shareholders of the unionized business. The ones that are likely to lose the most from a trade union are those who are unemployed or at the risk of unemployment or who are not able to get the job that they want in a particular field. The so-called insider-outsider theory analyses this problem.
Usually, the marginal benefit of an additional worker decreases as the number of workers increase. This implies that the lower the minimum wage, the more workers a company can profitably employ. Thus, while an increase in the minimum wage benefits the insiders, as a result fewer new workers are recruited and fewer retiring workers replaced. This effect is more pronounced in a work-intensive service company.
The economic analysis of a cartel applies completely to most unions, to those that try to fix the (minimum) price of work, to limit supply (e.g., by some criteria on membership or education) or to limit competition. On the other hand, unions often have also other functions than those of a cartel: they may advise the workers, warn about disadvantageous contracts or terms of employment etc. These latter functions are usually considered as beneficial for both the workers and for the society as a whole (though not necessarily for corporations or shareholders), whereas the opposite applies to cartel-type minimum terms.
Often the union of a particular industry puts pressure on politicians to subsidize the industry concerned. This benefits both the workers, companies, shareholders and consumers of the product of that industry at a cost to other people. Thus, it depends on the question whether the interests of a trade union are for or against the interests of the companies, workers, unemployed, tax-payers or the society as a whole.
**
In summary, one thing I do not want to do is make broad generalizatoins about all organized labor, because many unions behave differently then others, and many unions have essential roles, but at the same time, many behave in a fashion I consider to be generally harmful in a broader scope..
Sven @8
“For my part, my dislike of unions is that they have become less concerned with working conditions, which is what places like coal mining needs, and more concernign with lobbying, increasing wages and union survival.”
You haven’t ever belonged to a union, have you? But, taking your statement at face value, what’s wrong with lobbying (against anti-worker legislation, and for pro-worker legislation), bargaining for higher wages (that’s what unions are for, isn’t it?), or … geez, this is a good one … how the hell are unions supposed to do ANYTHING for the workers they represent if they don’t survive?
“When the Issaquah teachers went on strike, I was sympathetic in part, until they voted to defy the courts order to return to work.”
The teachers, and teacher unions, are a different issue. I’m among those whose patience with them has run out. I can understand a teacher making $30,000 wanting more money — who can live on that? — but these teacher strikes aren’t about raising 30K salaries. The senior teachers in the rich districts — the ones making 65K to 70K a year — have amply demonstrated their willingness to fuck over the younger and less well off teachers to put more money in their own already affluent pockets (two teachers married to each other are knocking down around 130K to 140K a year — not exactly poor). That’s when they lost my support — when they fucked over their own, out of pure greed.
“Leaving aside the argument about whether they as state employees can legally strike”
SCREEEEECH!!!!! Stop right there!!! Teachers are NOT state employees! They are employees of the local school districts they work for. When you see the term “state employees” in the news media, that term does NOT mean, or include, teachers. When you see statistics about the number of state employees or average state employee pay, those figures do not include any teachers. Teachers (who prefer to be called “educators”) are NOT state employees!!!!!
“(some legal experts say no) when they voted to defy a courts order, they demonstrated a disrespect of authority I found”
There comes a time when so-called authority ought to be disrespected, and even resisted — we would still have slavery in this country if authority hadn’t been disrespected and resisted — but the Issaquah strike wasn’t such a time.
http://www.nilrr.org/corruption.htm
Here is how our spineless Legislature deals with strikes. They reward teachers for striking and punish state employees for not striking by taking money away from state employees and giving it to teachers. That is why a teacher in King or Snohomish counties makes more money than a lawyer employed by a state agency.
41
“While you arrogantly attempt to wax philosphic, why not address all the damage the unions have done to this country as well.”
As long as we’re waxing philosophic, why not address all the damage that rapacious businessmen and Wall Street buccaneers have done to this country?
41
“There creation was absolutely needed. However after decades of abuse, misuse and corruption, the unions of today are no better than any other special interest group in America.”
Which rightwing talking-point memo did you get this bombastic piece of propaganda bullshit from? I like unions. Fuck you!
Sure thing Roger.
BTW, I was lisetening to John Carlson the other day on the way home and some blathering wacko was on, calling himself Don and going on an insane tirade about “King George”. His insane ramblings sound exactly like your posts here, prior to his being dismissed for being well…. an angry moron.
I would bet good money that Roger Rabbit and Don are one and the same.
Sven @ 34: Not buying it Sven. Who do you think you are talking to here, the public? Wrong! Your “They are all corrupt” schtick is just a way to make the Dems SEEM as bad as the Reps, which, IMHO, is not the case. But you know that.
Also, my definition of corruption is not semantics, it’s the friggen LAW. You can’t prosecute for immorality or being a politician. But, your smokescreen of high falutin’ principles aside, that’s our system. Want to change it? Run for office, but don’t bore me with your unrealistic drivel about how electing a Republican is going to change that. The GOP is the party of status quo, cast in amber. My whole point is that the “integrity on a case by case basis” is exactly what we don’t need, as that gives the GOP a chance to weasel another set of crooks past us. Fortunately I think everyone is getting that message and your opinion is in way in the minority. The Republican Party (not conservatism, per se) IS the scandal here, and anyone who will defend the GOP is, in my book, as bad as a Holocaust denier.
That being said, u are wasting your time here Sven. Everyone sees through your transparent attempts to confuse/obfuscate/re-direct etc. I mean, when even Tucker Carlson is making my points for me, life is good.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....32436/3482
Roger,
You haven’t ever belonged to a union, have you
Local 428 AFL CIO, San jose California, and the Boeing Machinist union in Everett, District 751.
You haven’t ever belonged to a union, have you? But, taking your statement at face value, what’s wrong with lobbying (against anti-worker legislation, and for pro-worker legislation), bargaining for higher wages (that’s what unions are for, isn’t it?), or … geez, this is a good one … how the hell are unions supposed to do ANYTHING for the workers they represent if they don’t survive?
As i said, those are all worthy, but whent he wage increases outpace inflation, when the benefits ignore market reality, when the actions for the union to survive are at the expense of the rank and file, then I see it as dangerous. Its a matter of degree and perspective, and I was overgeneralizing.
not unions all are bad.
SCREEEEECH!!!!!
Cool! I made Roger Screech!!
=)
Stop right there!!! Teachers are NOT state employees! They are employees of the local school districts they work for. When you see the term “state employees” in the news media, that term does NOT mean, or include, teachers. When you see statistics about the number of state employees or average state employee pay, those figures do not include any teachers. Teachers (who prefer to be called “educators”) are NOT state employees!!!!!
Sorry, my bad, poor choice of words. I meant PUBLIC employees. As such they are still not permitted to strike under Washington Common law.
RCW 41.56.120
Right to strike not granted.
Nothing contained in this chapter shall permit or grant any public employee the right to strike or refuse to perform his official duties.
RCW 41.80.060
Right to strike not granted.
Nothing contained in chapter 354, Laws of 2002 permits or grants to any employee the right to strike or refuse to perform his or her official duties.
Case law has pretty consistently upheld that as well. In the Issaquah strike, the judge was fairly vehement about it.
Even The Governor had made that statement while still AG.
There comes a time when so-called authority ought to be disrespected, and even resisted – we would still have slavery in this country if authority hadn’t been disrespected and resisted – but the Issaquah strike wasn’t such a time.
Right, they could have easily continued to make their point known using blue flu tactics and other protests, including rallys as such.
And I agree that civil disobedience has a very rich tradition in our history.
But I prefer to save that for when there is an overriding public need is served.
larry,
Not buying it Sven. Who do you think you are talking to here, the public? Wrong! Your “They are all corrupt” schtick is just a way to make the Dems SEEM as bad as the Reps, which, IMHO, is not the case. But you know that.
I am consistent to my premise, which I have always stated, that I am cynical to the motivations of most politicians, and while this is a liberal site that lambasts the obvious trangressions of the republicans, in reality there are just as many concervative sites doing the same to the democrats.
My point stands that the wink/nudge tit for tat culture in DC is the problem, not who just got caught this week.
Also, my definition of corruption is not semantics, it’s the friggen LAW. You can’t prosecute for immorality or being a politician.
Oh but how I wish we could…..seriously, all laws are based on an ideal of some facet of morality. Thats what laws are. To point out *corrupt* is so vague as to be almost meaningless.
In the interest of keeping this productive, what is a meaningful definition of corruption?
But, your smokescreen of high falutin’ principles aside,
High falutin? dang I have never been accused of bein high falutin before….
..that’s our system. Want to change it? Run for office, but don’t bore me with your unrealistic drivel about how electing a Republican is going to change that.
Oh hold on. First of all, I may or may not be unrealistically idealistic, but dont you dare use that to dismiss the problem as unfixable.
If more people cared, we might actually force politicians to stand by their principles and actually represent the people.
The GOP is the party of status quo, cast in amber.
Dude, both parties are happily cast in amber. We are living in a yin yang stylized culture where the two parties force us to chose between the lesser of two evils, and it sucks.
My whole point is that the “integrity on a case by case basis” is exactly what we don’t need, as that gives the GOP a chance to weasel another set of crooks past us.
Wrong. Voting by party line is what does that. Votign to the person and the issue, disregarding party line platforms and rhetoric allows personal intrigty and rational logic to decide the contests.
Voting for anything D or anythign R is simply giving the pirates more sail.
Fortunately I think everyone is getting that message and your opinion is in way in the minority. The Republican Party (not conservatism, per se) IS the scandal here, and anyone who will defend the GOP is, in my book, as bad as a Holocaust denier.
Actually, I have yet to defend the GOP yet. I have merely stated that in my opinoin there is mo moral superiority between them and the Dems, because in my opinoin, neither gives a damn about the people, or the country, they only care about winning.
That being said, u are wasting your time here Sven. Everyone sees through your transparent attempts to confuse/obfuscate/re-direct etc.
Yes, I can see where a rational dispassionate attempt at dialogue would be out of place.
(rolling eyes)
I mean, when even Tucker Carlson is making my points for me, life is good.
Err, well if that suits you, go for it…
Sven, u obviously have way more free time than I do. The Carlson article says it all. Idealogues, freaks and crooks have hijacked the republican party. Why would anyone vote for them?
“Yes, I can see where a rational dispassionate attempt at dialogue would be out of place.” HAhahahahahahahahahahaha, u so funny! I wasn’t trying to have a dialogue with you! HAhahahahahaahaha.
I’m done.
57,
I dont follow Tucker, but if he is your hero cool. People were saying findamentally the same thing about the democrats not long ago, that it had been hijacked by the ultra liberals.
Just for sake of argument.
I see you also chose not to continue to discuss your definiton of corrupt. Ok fine.
Despite your disdain I will continue to evaluate the issue and the person and make an informed decision. it works for me.
If you chose to stay lockstep democrat, then thats your choice. It works for you.
But lockstep anything is a problem, in my opinion.
53
“BTW, I was lisetening to John Carlson the other day on the way home and some blathering wacko was on, calling himself Don and going on an insane tirade about ‘King George’.”
Yes, I have you pegged as a Carlson listener (NOT “lisetener”).
“His insane ramblings sound exactly like your posts here”
Point #1 — If your implication is I was the caller, forget it — I don’t listen to, or call in to, Carlson’s show — you got the wrong fella.
Point #2 — What’s “insane” about criticizing a president who has failed miserably at every aspect of running a government? I would submit that anyone who still supports this incompetent, corrupt, lying idiot is insane, or at least has very serious mental and/or emotional problems.
Point #3 — The epithet “King George” seems quite apt considering he thinks he can do whatever he pleases without regard for the Congress or courts. A president who acts like checks and balances don’t exist is, in fact, arrogating to himself the unrestrained powers of a king, dictator, or whatever term you prefer to use to describe a totalitarian or absolutist.
“prior to his being dismissed for being well…. an angry moron.”
Having listened to Carlson’s show a couple times in the distant past (purely out of morbid curiosity), I’m well aware that, yes, whenever John starts losing an argument with a caller he overtalks him or hangs up on him. Well, try dismissing this, asshole — you rightwingers’ standing in the polls is at about 1/3rd of the electorate and still falling, and you lost the governor’s race, lost the U.S. Senate race, lost the state senate, lost the King County Executive race, lost your rightwing mayor in Spokane, and 11 months from now you’re going to lose control of both houses of Congress, and 23 months from now you’re going to lose the White House.
Sven sort of reminds me of C. E. Lively.
GOP = done, toast, history, kaput.
I cant wait until Patty Osama Mama Murray is taken down by Abramoff
55
Do unions overreach sometimes? Sure. But don’t forget to mention that managements overreach, too — far more often than unions do, in my opinion — which is precisely why we have unions. Not to worry. When a union gets too greedy, MTR’s “invisible hand” will take care of it. Greedy union = bankrupt company = no jobs = no union. These things are self-correcting over the long run. And let’s not forget there are many, many intelligently-run unions that DO understand what happens when a union demands and gets more than a company can afford to pay.
55
“SCREEEEECH!!!!! Cool! I made Roger Screech!!”
Nope, sorry — you didn’t. That wasn’t RR screeching, that was YOU burning rubber as I slammed on your brakes. You were about to drive off a cliff, and that was the sound of me saving your ignorant ass.
44
“Sorry, my bad, poor choice of words. I meant PUBLIC employees. As such they are still not permitted to strike under Washington Common law.”
It pains me to correct you AGAIN, Sven, but the RCW is statutory law NOT common law!!! Common law is court decisions, a.k.a. case law, judicial opinions, judge-made law, and other monikers. Laws passed by the legislature are called “statutes.” Statutes, or RCWs, are NOT the same as “common law.” They are different. We have two main types of law here in America, statutory law and common law. Different. Get it?
@ 62
I bet she’s low on the prosecutors priority list. Look a little higher, like the top of the list.
See that name?
Uh-huh it starts with a T doesn’t it?
Can you say that big name? “T” “T” “Tom”. Good.
Can you say the last name? It’s harder isn’t it. I’ll help you; it’s pronounced “Dee-Lay”, Tom DeLay.
Yea!! OK it’s story time. Who’s up for My Pet Goat?
62)
DOOLITTLE’S wifey getting 110 grand for making a couple of calls to congress re favorite charity. That don’t smell too good.
Murray’s fine as she was chair of SDCC which explains contributions.
55
Sven, I don’t know how you managed it, but somehow — miraculously — you actually searched the RCW and found the RIGHT section!!! Only problem is, you cited two RCW sections, and have no clue which is the right one. I’ll help you. RCW Chapter 41.56 applies to employees of municipal corporations (i.e., cities and counties), so that’s not the one you want, when you’re talking about state employees. RCW 41.80.060 is the correct answer in the latter context.
You are absolutely correct that it’s illegal for state employees to strike, which is why they’ve rarely gone on strike. Over the last 30 years, the Legislature has been very consistent in rewarding teachers for striking and punishing state workers for not striking by taking money away from state employees and giving it to teachers. The result has been that teachers get raises because they strike, and state employees don’t get raises because they don’t strike. The message sent by the Legislature is clear: You will be rewarded with more money for breaking the law, and you will be punished with lower salaries if you are foolish enough to respect the law.
It is precisely for this reason that state employees staged an illegal strike 4 or 5 years ago. It wasn’t much of a strike — it only lasted 1 day, and only a small percentage of the state workers actually walked out. It happened before I retired, and I was still working for the state at that time, but I did not participate in the strike because I was management at the time. It didn’t have much effect on state salaries, but it did alert legislators to the fact that everything has its limits and state employees had just about reached the limit of how much econommic abuse they were going to tolerate from a Legislature that has gotten things completely ass backwards.
Mr. Cynical:
Hot stock tip for you: NOV buy tomorrow at $70.00. You’ll make 5% before Feb 1.
I’m not going to buy, I’m still in the updraft of RHAT. Oh, yeah up another 2.67% just TODAY. Boo-yah!!
Let me know how the NOV works out for you.
Loser.
My apologies to everyone else, off topic I know.
60,
VA, if I was really trying to be a spy and Agent Provocatuer, I would agree with your wildest ramblings and then try to undermine you.
Nice try though. I am not sure if I should be flattered or not that you find a moderate so unnerving.
So, if the Legislature continues to punish state employees for not striking by taking money away from them and giving it to teachers as a reward for striking, would I support (in spirit or principle, anyway, as I’m now retired) an illegal strike by state employees if that’s what it takes to get treated fairly by a Legislature that has consistently treated them grossly unfairly and has itself ignored the law by giving in to teacher extortion at the expense of those who respect the law?
Damn right I would! There comes a time when the law must be disobeyed in order to save the law, and this is verging on one of those times.
69
“moderate”
Get a load of a wingnut calling himself a “moderate”!!!
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
63….
I use no brakes, since I dont rush,
64.
Common law and statute support my position. If my mixing them confused you apologies, but my point stands.
66
Dolittles wife got 110 grand over 3 years, which makes it a 35k annual job. Hardly living in luxury. Just a perspective comment.
67,
Roger out of curiosity, what is your opinoin of the cumpulsory state workers union and how mandatory membership actually erased a pay raise?
71,
Very little of waht I write is remotely neocon.
Sorry.
Sven @ 58:
View this: http://www.gopsenators.com/glasshouses
So, follow the logic:
IF
a) The GOP is trying to make the case that Democratic congresscritters (none of whom has been indicted/prosecuted/found guilty or pled) are just as bad as Republican congresscritters, administration aides or conservative lobbyists(some of whom are heavily implicated/pled/soon to be indicted)
AND
B) You are making the same case
THEN
How are you NOT a shill for the GOP?
Please don’t take this as an attempt to start a (diatribe disguised as )”dialogue”.
To All: Ever notice that “Sven” could be short for “Svengali”? Maybe he thinks he can hypnotize us into thinking he is a “moderate”. Or just confuse you into thinking black is white, right is wrong, bad is good, etc. Anyway, just a warning that not all posters here are what they say they are, if you read carefully enough.
I wont take responsibility for the GOP self serving defense.
I am merely stating my belief that politics in general is disgusting, and there are criminals on all sides pointing fingers at each other.
Even Kos agrees that it happens. http://dailykos.com/story/2005/9/7/221332/3290
You claim it happens more for Republicans. Maybe it does. It still happens for the left, and that makes them as suspect in my eyes, and target for my cynicism.
In my personal opinion, the lack of morality in politics in general is problem, not who got caught this week.
WHY I’M FOR SINGLE-PAYER HEALTH INSURANCE (REASON #114)
I called my health insurance company this afternoon to find out whether the employer has forwarded my January COBRA payment to the insurer, so I don’t lose my health coverage.
(Ring)
Roger Rabbit: Hi. I sent my January premium payment to the employer’s payroll office 4 weeks ago, and I’d like to know if they’ve sent it to you, because we’ve had a problem in the past of the employer sitting on our money and not paying our premium.
Insurance Company Representative: There’s no way I can tell you that, because our computer system isn’t programmed to show whether we’ve received your premium payment.
Roger Rabbit: Really? That seems odd. How can I find out if my premium has been paid?
Insurance Company Representative: Try calling the employer. Maybe they can tell you.
Roger Rabbit: Of course they’re going to say they paid it. What makes you think I’d believe them? If I trusted them, I wouldn’t be calling you to find out if they paid it.
Insurance Company Reprsentative: I’m sorry, sir, but I don’t know whether we’ve received your payment, so that’s the only suggestion I can make.
Roger Rabbit: I don’t want to find out my premium hasn’t been paid by getting sick, going to the hospital, and finding out I owe a $20,000 hospital bill because my coverage was cancelled for nonpayment.
Insurance Company Representative: Sir, we’ll notify you before we cancel your coverage for nonpayment.
Roger Rabbit: You didn’t the last time, so why should I believe you will the next time?
Insurance Company Representative: I’m sorry, sir, but that’s all I can tell you.
Roger Rabbit: Thanks for your time. You work in Bangladesh for a contract call center hired by the insurance company so they don’t have to pay U.S. wages to their customer service representatives, don’t you? That explains why you don’t have access to the computer system, and your accent. Never mind. I’ll call the employer.
OK, wingnuts, a government single-payer system may not be perfect, but it would be hard for the government to do worse than the private sector is doing, and quite frankly I’m to the point where I trust the government — even a government run by Bush’s corrupt and incompetent lackeys — more than I trust your highly-vaunted free market, entreprenuerial, capitalist health care system.
74.
Sure, sven isnt really my name, and and I have no idea if you are really an urbanite, let alone named Larry.
Its such a facinating mystery….isnt it.
=)
But I am still non partisan and independent.
Roger.
OK, wingnuts, a government single-payer system may not be perfect, but it would be hard for the government to do worse than the private sector is doing, and quite frankly I’m to the point where I trust the government – even a government run by Bush’s corrupt and incompetent lackeys – more than I trust your highly-vaunted free market, entreprenuerial, capitalist health care system.
Wow. For you to admit that, I am truly speechless. And Cobra…SUCKS. the health insurance scam industry SUCKS.
So does the prescription drug industry.
WHY I’M FOR SINGLE-PAYER HEALTH INSURANCE (REASON #115)
Private sector health insurance overhead/administrative costs are 15%; government-run Medicare overhead/administrative costs are 1/2%.
“OK, wingnuts, a government single-payer system may not be perfect, but it would be hard for the government to do worse than the private sector is doing, and quite frankly I’m to the point where I trust the government – even a government run by Bush’s corrupt and incompetent lackeys – more than I trust your highly-vaunted free market, entreprenuerial, capitalist health care system.”
Roger (Don), you need to throw in Nazi, Klansmen, puupy killer, etc….
Go back and submit it again.
RR , Insurance corportions can have only one business aim. To make more and more profit for their shareholders. They exist ONLY for that purpose. Not or your health, not for the doctor, not for socieety in general. Money and the more of it the better is their only concern.
That is why having psycopathic middlemen (insurance corps) between you and your healthcare is a recipe for illness and death.
But if you invest in the Insurance Corp, you can make oodles and oodles of money while before you die.
Yeah Sven, you’re independent, and I’m Santy Claus…
momus 67, your post @ 79 contained no thought.
That is precisly what is expected from you. Do not bother to resubmit.
81,
I want a pony, and a glock 9mm, and world peace.
Sven.
83,
No pony, I know what you want to do with him. No glock, you don’t know what to do with it. And as long as you vote Repuglican you will never get world peace…
I’d be interested to hear where this discussion is going….
It sounds like rabbit, in his even keeled manner is asserting that Insurance companies should be abolished.
On the subject of contabing no thought. I am still waiting for Donnageddon repsonse to post #18
The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of the working people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life.
Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the means of production, abolish the wage system, and live in harmony with the Earth.
We find that the centering of the management of industries into fewer and fewer hands makes the trade unions unable to cope with the ever growing power of the employing class. The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers.
These conditions can be changed and the interest of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members in any one industry, or in all industries if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an injury to all.
Instead of the conservative motto, “A fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work,” we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, “Abolition of the wage system.”
It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for everyday struggle with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old.
Fire,
I am starting to believe you are not really Santa.
Dale,
Sounds a bit familiar…proletariat throw off the yoke of your oppressors, and all that….
Is May 1st your favorite holiday?
77.
In your dreams, you are.
We are the only industrialized that does not have socialized medicine . And you can thank the unions for your 40 hour work week and the weekend . Ask the BIAW for their incidence of injury versus Union companies. I am biased, I have had a union card since I was 15 and enjoyed the benefits of organized labor(with the exception of 3 years of military service)my entire life .
86,
But, the Taft-Hartley Act, followed by the McCarthy era and the hounding of John L. Lewis, Walter Reuther and Harry Bridges pretty much turned labor over to that god damned plumber (as my father called him) George Meany.
That left labor a shell of its former form by 1970.
It was a concerted effort by the capitalist class and their lackeys that got the castration accomplished.
Dale, are there any other people who think as you do? Maybe I could conduct a group session for all of you to help you overcome this “socialism fetish.”
84: ZING!
I was getting ready to move on, but I find it interesting how much you cannot stomach an actual independent voice.
So I will make myself at home here.
Nice digs Goldy……
Sven:
“The word “Svengali” has entered the language meaning a person who, with evil intent, tries to persuade another to do what is desired (without them knowing it).”
I think that sums up your M.O.
Larry,
I scare you way too much.
I dont care to shift anyones opinion, or convince anyone of anything.
I have no evil intent. I am simply here stating an opinion. Please, vote democrat, and be happy you do. I don’t care.
All I will say is that it I hate when partisan affiliation overrides principle and rational discussion.
I am not a politician, or a hypnotist, I am jsut a middle aged computer geek, who enjoys a good discussion.
87,
And I am beginning to believe you are not really an independent….
96,
I have been a registered voter since 1979. I have never registered to a major party. The last political quz I took said i was a centrist, and I typically align as a neo liberatarian.
make of it what you will.
I dont vote in the new primary system because I wont choose a party ballot to vote on.
I vote according to the people’s positions and charactor, and the issue, not the party affiliation.
Make of it what you will. There are plenty of neocons here, I dont need to defend any of their opinoins. I will stay true to my own.
I still fail to see why an independent is so scary
93.
That’s starting to sound a bit troll-like, Sveni.
Methinks you protesteth to much Sven. An independent wouldn’t care what a kneejerk liberal like myself thinks. And, an independent wouldn’t defend the Rethuglicans. You didn’t defend them? Oh, I see, you said the Dems are just as bad, whilst the Rethugs are the ones being prosecuted. Wait one….that doesn’t MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE!
99: “too” much. Srry
VA,
That was intended to.
I dont like personal confrontations or mocking, but I am literally laughing my butt off here as people continue to insist I am something they can conveniently label and dismiss.
more time has spent here in this thread complaining I am not a moderate or an independent, then actually disucussing the issue, something i consider ironic.
Whether anyone cares for it or not, there are people who openly reject the forced theistic dualism our current political parties insists we need to maintain as status quo, and would happily welcome more diversity in the political spectrum.
Svengali – We love independent views here. Please let us know if you run across any…
Let’s see…
If it walks like a duck,
and it quacks like a duck
It’s an independent.
Got it.
99: Oh, sorry, it does make sense. That is, it makes sense to call the Dems as bad as the Rethugs if you are trying to deflect attention from how bad the Rethugs are.
I’ll make my position simple: Vote for the party with LESS indictees! Because anyone who would associate with Rethugs right now is either crooked or stupid!
Larry,
I have yet to defend on a systematic basis any republican accused of wrong doing.
All I have done is point out that it is representitive of the corruption inherent and intrinsic to the political process itself, and the number of democrats also caught up in it makes that evident.
Sure Abramoff was a huge player, and he will go down and take many with him.
But he isnt the only player, and the right isnt the only target.
The lobbying system, the loopholes in campaign finance laws and the greed of politicians is the issue.
VA – you make me laugh…. Thanks
104,
I have a better way.
ignore the party and vote for the person with the best ideas and qualifications.
Quack.
But your approach (and intent) is to get the pressure of the Rethuglicans. Why else would you be making these arguments? And what Dems are going to be prosecuted? I agree that a few may be caught in the net, but I’ll wager a guess it’ll be pretty lopsided toward the Rethuglican side. (Bet $? I’d say more than 75% of those found guilty will be conservatives)
The right isn’t the target. Illegality is the target. And I say anyone who broke the law should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. Do you agree? We’re not talking about “loopholes” (nice try) here, we (the nation, the press, the investigation, etc) are focused on illegal actions. You say you want to have a discussion about our broken system, but all that is really just a smokescreen to divert. Your typical Rethug tactics are showing by the way.
My point/assertion is the investigation will move on, voters will vote and Dems will probably be back in power in 2006 or 2008. You keep on fightin’ the good fight, but that ain’t gonna change the next election cycle (unless Bush decides it’s time for a terror alert or another war, God forbid)
Keep digging Sven, maybe that hole will turn into a tunnel
111: That’s what got us a congress full of these thieves Sven. They are better at PR. Satan’s minions usually are.
Repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome is illogical.
sven, I have to admit, your credibility as an “independent” is pretty much nil. ever since you came on board it has been nothing but defensive reactions for the Republican party, and the Bush administration in general.
That is a key point. No one who is an Independent at this stage of the game would try to defend the indefensible actions of the Bush administration. That is a job for the wingiest of the wingnuts.
I hope you are enjoying that vocation.
THE BUSH RECORD ON PROTECTING MINE WORKER SAFETY
The accident that trapped nine miners in Western Pennsylvania in July 2002 highlights a major problem of increased coal-mining deaths. According to the New York Times, “the mine workers union and Democratic lawmakers have said that lax enforcement by the Bush Administration is partly to blame for the increase.” A look at the Bush budget on mine safety shows some contributing factors:
INSPECTOR GENERAL IDENTIFIES MAJOR PROBLEMS – Report Urges More Resources: The Department of Labor Office of Inspector General indicated in its Semiannual Report to the Congress, October 1, 2001 – March 31, 2002 that “MSHA is unable to complete statutorily mandated inspections of Metal/Nonmetal mine operations because of the rapid growth in mine operations, reductions in the numbers of inspectors, and shifts toward compliance assistance.” Ironically, the Administration has not requested additional inspectors for Metal/Nonmetal Mines.
BUSH FIRST BUDGET CUTS – Ignoring IG Report, Bush Slashes Enforcement: President Bush proposed an overall cut to MSHA staffing levels for the FY 2002 budget. That proposal included a shift of some enforcement resources from Coal Mine to Metal/Non-Metal safety and health activities. The Congress restored the proposed cuts. However, as was the case with OSHA, the Department of Labor neglected to fill many vacant positions throughout 2001, thus reducing the overall enforcement activities.
BUSH SECOND BUDGET CUTS – Continuing to Slash: The President’s FY 2003 Budget proposed an overall 6 percent cut of MSHA resources and a shift of enforcement resources from Coal to Metal/Non-Metal Mine safety and health activities.
BUSH ENFORCEMENT RECORD – Ignoring Repeated Violations: At the “Jim Walters Resources mine in Brookwood, Ala., 55 miles southwest of Birmingham, 13 miners died last September in an explosion. At the time, the mine had 31 outstanding violations, and government inspectors had not returned to determine whether they had been corrected.” [New York Times, 7/26/2002]
BUSH ADMINISTRATION JUSTIFICATION – Resorts to Citing Statistics From 100 Years Ago: To justify its massive budget cuts, the Bush Administration resorted to comparing the mine fatality rate with rates all the way back to 1900 – when the common cold could kill someone. “The Bush administration’s chief official on mine safety, David D. Lauriski, defended the administration’s enforcement record and noted that the number of coal deaths was far lower than in decades past. The 42 deaths in 2001 were far below the 153 in 1981 and 294 in 1961. In fact, in every year from 1900 to 1945, the number of coal mining deaths exceeded 1,000, and in many years there were more than 2,000.” [New York Times, 7/26/2002]
Hey Wabbit – If yer such a big fan of single payer, next time you get sick go to Canada and let us know how it works out. That is, if you can get an appointment. And if there are doctors who can treat what you have. And if they have the equipment and technology.
Hint: you can’t, there aren’t and they don’t….
I should have known that the Miner’s deaths were Bush’s fault. It was only a matter of time………..
Unfuckingbelieveable!
118,
No, YOU are unfuckingbelieveable. You won’t even read the actual FACTS surrounding the case before you jump in to defend the Bushites… Do you dispute any of the facts presented by VA? NO? Didn’t think so. Just keep defending the Fascists… Unfuckingbelieveable.
Sgmmac – Do you see now why I believe liberalism is actually a mental disorder? I agree. Unfuckingbelievable…
MTR/SGMMAC = Republitrolls.
I don’t believe that liberalism isn’t a mental disorder. I do have some liberal views here and there. Most especially when it comes to sex discrimination and sexual harassment……
Fire,
My answer to you is stuck in the filter somewhere. I am sure Goldy will release it soon. For some reason everytime I say the U word, it snatches in my post.
MTR
What
Who is at fault for the death of the coal miners.. easy the MSM. The MSM LIED and coal miners died. Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Touchy, touchy — you RepoTrolls shuuure are thin skinned.
But, tell me, how many coal mines in WV actually get inspected? Don’t you think it odd that this one had hundres of citations, and had been shut down 15 times in the past year?
BTW, tell me — how is it Bill Clinton’s fault ;^P
If the mine had several hundred citations and was closed 15 times, somebody was obviously inspecting it. Unless a citation fairy was magically citing the damn mine and closing it too.
Can you say fucking accident?
It’s certainly not any President’s fault, whether the President is Republican or Democrat is irrelevant to the blame issue.
Those coal miners weren’t drafted into the mine and they weren’t indentured servants, nor were they slaves. They knew full well what the risks of coal mining is and they accepted the risks every day that they set foot in the mines.
So the mine has been cited numerous times for safety violations in recent years huh. Why didn’t your Librul union try to shut down the mine if it was so dangerous? Why didn’t they strike? I thought you libruls were for workers safety. Too busy extorting the workers money and giving it to donkocrats maybe?
79
“Sure, sven isnt really my name”
I believe you. Anyone who uses their real name on this, or any other, political blog is a fool.
“But I am still non partisan and independent.”
EEEEE-HAW HAR HOO HEE HA HAR HOO CACKLE SNICKER LAUGH HAR HAW HOOO HEEE HA HA HO HO HAR HAR HAW HEE HA HOO HAR CHUCKLE HA HAR
Thanks, I needed that laugh!!!
82
PUBLIC NOTICE: Roger Rabbit is not Donageddon.
83
“But if you invest in the Insurance Corp, you can make oodles and oodles of money while before you die.”
Uhh … no. You, the investor, get the risk and losses; Mike McGavick, the CEO, gets the profits (if there are any; if not, he takes your capital).
88
“It sounds like rabbit, in his even keeled manner is asserting that Insurance companies should be abolished.”
Did I say that? No, I didn’t say insurance companies should be abolished. I said:
FUCK INSURANCE COMPANIES!!!
Neither have I ever posted that Republicans should be abolished or eliminated. In fact, I’ve come out numerous times in favor of a two-party system — and Republicans can be one of the parties. What I said was:
FUCK REPUBLICANS!!!
77
“In my personal opinion, the lack of morality in politics in general is problem, not who got caught this week.”
Nice try at rationalizing away the GOP’s pervasive and systematic corruption, but this turkey ain’t gonna fly. Bush promised to change the culture in D.C., and he did — right back to the corrupt culture of the Grant and Harding administrations!!!
Sorry, Sven, but only ONE party is in power in D.C. — is calling all the shots — is responsible for the godawful mess that America’s government has become. And YOU, my partisan shill friend, are part of the problem — not part of the solution.
93
“We are the only industrialized that does not have socialized medicine . And you can thank the unions for your 40 hour work week and the weekend . Ask the BIAW for their incidence of injury versus Union companies. I am biased, I have had a union card since I was 15 and enjoyed the benefits of organized labor(with the exception of 3 years of military service)my entire life.”
Dale — you are True Blue American Hue.
97
“I was getting ready to move on, but I find it interesting how much you cannot stomach an actual independent voice. So I will make myself at home here.”
Oh, by all means — stay!!!! It’s too bad Cynical and MTR are the only trollfucks with spine, and all the rest have run away (e.g., yellowbacks like John McDonald), because this site would be awfully boring if we didn’t have any trollfucks to beat the stuffing out of. Participation in the HorsesAss saloon fight is a voluntary activity! Cowards and crybabies need not apply.
As for Sven’s assertion that he is an “independent voice” …
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
99
“I am not a politician, or a hypnotist, I am jsut a middle aged computer geek, who enjoys a good discussion.”
Discussion? What discussion? Nobody comes here for discussion. Methinks you got on the wrong bus, Bubba.
101
“I have been a registered voter since 1979. I have never registered to a major party.”
I have been a registered voter since the 1960s, and I have never registered to a major party, either. That’s because I have always voted in Washington, and Washington doesn’t register voters by party! Sooooo … I guess that makes me an “independent” too, huh?
HEY EVERYBODY! PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT!!! ROGER RABBIT IS AN INDEPENDENT DEMOCRATIC PARTY HACK!!!
105
“more time has spent here in this thread complaining I am not a moderate or an independent, then actually disucussing the issue, something i consider ironic.”
What issue were we discussing — besides the fact you’re not an independent and I’m not the Easter Bunny?
I mean — seriously — do I look like the kind of rabbit who goes around with a cutsy little basket with colored eggs in it?
If you think rabbits lay colored eggs, you’re either a dolt or a Republican, or both.
Comment on 113
“You say you want to have a discussion about our broken system …”
There’s nothing broken in our system that one honest election can’t fix.
“There’s nothing broken in our system that one honest election can’t fix.”
Unfortunately, we haven’t had one of those on the national level for quite a while, although fortunately we still have them on the local level (except in Snohomish County).
122
“I don’t believe that liberalism isn’t a mental disorder.”
Yes, we know. It shows in your posts.
@144
yeah, right!
Roger,
Being a liberal isn’t a disorder, it isn’t a sin, it isn’t criminal, and it certainly isn’t unique.
144
We have another “independent voice” posting here, I see. (Squeaky bunny voice dripping with sarcasm)
Can the MSM ever tell the truth. It is bad enough knowingly trying to pass forge documents off as authentic and their other lies are well documented. Do they just report whatever they hear? Do they ever verify the information they get? Obvoisly not.
Tell me lefties, why isn’t WVA Senator Robert 3K Sheets Byrd doing something about mine safety when he is one of the biggest Congressional porkers in the world? He’s been in Congress way before the MSA of 1969. Yet from all you leftist pinheads he gets a pass? Why is that? Why wasn’t he making hay asking for “mine” (for coal mining holes) money instead of “mine” (possessive ownership for pet projects) money? That’s why Sven has a great laugh on you guys.
At least Moon Landrieu’s crying a river daughter Mary has been working on levee projects in her state. That’s not pork!
Here, let me deliver another web site that describes the king of pork. Was he getting money for mine issues? NOT EVEN ON HIS RADAR! I gave you all the CAGW some time ago but you missed that train also.
http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=news_byrddroppings
In 2005, Senator Robert C. Byrd managed to claw $399 million in pork for West Virginia, or $220 for every single resident, using his privileged position as ranking chairman of the Appropriations Committee. After he secured $97 million in fiscal 1999, Byrd became the first person in CAGW’s Congressional Pig Book history to obtain more than $1 billion in pork for his state. In honor of this fiscal incontinence, we dedicate this page to Senator Byrd.
I bolded byrddroppings and it killed the full link. Sorry all.
What I would like to know is with all the support given to the
unions by democrats , I have never met one that used a union
shop to build or remodel their house. Wonder why. Bill Gates
did. As far as safety goes I would imagine a union job where
they have plenty of money to throw around would be safer for the
worker, but, they have all sorts of extra non producers to help
raise the costs of a project. I own a construction company and
a few years back some of my guys were hanging sheetrock, two of
them on scaffolding, two on the floor driving them around and
if thats not bad enough, they were driving them over the top of
the scraps. No safety rails (they were on the job but these
genius workers did not put them on). A safety inspector from
Labor and Industries walked in the job and I am the one that
got a ticket for $200 plus. I think that is bullshit. Why
don’t the workers get the ticket. Penalizing me won’t deter
them. Maybe the mine workers (non union for what its worth)
did something stupid to cause the explosion. How about a little
personal responsibility in this country. The gov’t inspectors
alot of times don’t come back to check that violations have
been corrected because THEY DON”T GIVE A FUCK because it does
not affect their paycheck and they have no reason to PRODUCE.
Either way owners of companies really don’t want their
employees getting hurt, but, how do you make people pay attention. We all do stupid shit from time to time. Goldy, did
you use a union shop to build your house?
12/21/2005
Coal impoundments serve a basic need to the coal-mining industry: to store water and waste created during the mining process. Inherent in their existence, though, are risks, including potential breaks that can jeopardize citizens, wildlife, and the environment.
“Thanks to the efforts of Sen. Robert C. Byrd, the Coal Impoundment Location and Information system has emerged as a resource to identify coal impoundments in West Virginia, to alert residents of emergency situations and related evacuation plans, to improve safety, and the latest information on legal actions and alternatives for impounding coal waste,” says McAteer.
http://www.nttc.edu/events/new.....recnum=221
September 15, 2004
Extension of mine fund tax added to budget bill
Byrd effort would keep per-ton program alive for 9 months
Sen. Robert C. Byrd, D-W.Va., took the first step Tuesday to stave off the end of the federal program that cleans up abandoned coal mines. Byrd won Senate Appropriations Committee approval to extend a tax that funds the cleanup program for another nine months.
http://www.wvgazette.com/secti...../200409151
9/29/2005
United Mine Workers of America “Proud to Endorse” Sen. Robert C. Byrd for Reelection
“Senator Byrd has worked to enact and strengthen coal mine health and safety legislation, helping to transform coal mines from dangerous, dusty places where life and limb were at constant risk into workplaces where workers can have a reasonable expectation of returning home from work safely every day,” Roberts said.
http://resistoppression.blogsp.....proud.html
October 28, 2005
Guest column: W.Va. leaders working to prevent threat of flooding
County and state governments, though, don’t need to wait for assistance from the federal government to find ways to warn citizens of the potential for disaster flooding. Thanks to the vision of West Virginia’s political and educational leaders, led by U.S. Sen. Robert Byrd, our area is in a position to communicate emergency information before disaster strikes and adapt it to other communities around the nation.
http://www.sludgesafety.org/news/2005/10_28.html
Of course, if the Bush administration refuses to implement laws, Senator Byrd, as a member of the minority, has few tools available to him to pressure them to do their jobs.
That is the job of the Republicans in the Senate and House, to hold hearings and pressure the president to keep the implementaion of FMSA and others in force.
Despite a record of violations and injuries much higher than the average for coal mines of similar size, the Sago Mine owner paid just $24,000 in fines in the past two years–with most of the serious violations carrying a penalty of just $247 each. Do you think that’s—enough to get them to change their practices? Hell no, it’s just a cost of doing business to them.
The Bush administration has crammed important posts in the Department of the Interior with coal, oil and gas industry executives and followed a similar practice at MSHA; filling high level posts there with coal industry management officials where they promote “cooperation” over enforcement.
The administration and the Republican-led Congress cut inspectors and worker safety programs from MSHA at a time when the coal industry is growing and more resources are needed to keep our miners safe. The 2006 budget passed by Congress cuts $4.9 million, after adjusting for inflation, from MSHA’s 2005 budget.
Also, workers in the Sago Mine don’t have a union to back them up when they raise safety concerns. John Bennett, whose father was killed in the mine accident, said on NBC’s Today show yesterday:
“We have no protection for our workers. We need to get the United Mine Workers back in these coal mines to protect [against] these safety violations, to protect the workers …”
Workers deserve a real right to form a union without employer harassment or interference. Something no Republican administration will ever lift a finger to assure.
When the workers who go down in the coal mines every day have no one to speak for them, when former coal company officials are responsible for enforcing worker safety laws, when companies face only a slap on the wrist for serious, repeated violations that put their workers in grave danger, tragedies like the Sago Mine explosion are inevitable.
“Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living”, as Mother Jones used to say, to see that this kind of tragedy does not happen again.
I think we should take this opportunity to watch some great mining movies, which remind us of the hard existence these brave miners endure and the rich culture they represent. Like Matewan and October Sky.
I asked my friend, and he also mentioned these other movies:
North Country
The Molly Maguires
Harlan County USA (great documentary!)
Harlan County War (fiction film of the same story)
How Green Was My Valley
Germinal (french coal miners!)
Where the Green Ants Dream (great documentary!)
October Sky (a bit of a stretch)
Treasure of Sierra Madre (lots of other Gold Mining, prospecting
westerns; Also “Deadwood”)
Theres also tons of SciFi mining movies like Outland and Dune.
There also the british ex-coal miner genre with the Full Monty and Brassed Off and even Billy Elliot.
VA: Nice legislative articles on Byrd. Thanks, I admit he has written some good mining legislation. He legislated money for coal waste impoundments and flood warning, closing abandoned mines, strengthen coal mine health and safety legislation. This is commendable. (BTW your first and last URLs refer to the same thing; coal waste!) He’s done more for West Virginia than Patty Murray has done for Washington State! But my pork question still stands; where in his over $1,000,000,000 pork barrel legislation does he use his pork to help the miners?
“When Republicans attack organized labor they are attacking the welfare of workers like the 12 miners who died providing the fuel that runs our factories and power plants.” – Ghouldstein
Ghouldstein couldn’t resist a chance to get a political spin out of the dead miners I see. Typical.